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Nikon patent 400mm, 500mm and 600mm f/5.6 Phase Fresnel (PF) lenses

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Old Tuesday 28th August 2018, 07:15   #51
Vespobuteo
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Good news, the 500/5.6 PF seems to have a Arca-Swiss compatible foot and it seems to be removable quite easy (quick lock).

"Bad" news, looks like it is made in CHINA. Look at the letters near the mount and you can see an 'A' as in 'MADE IN CHINA' at the end (attached photo).

Focus recall buttons, nano coating still indicates that this is intended as a "pro lens".
So lets hope the build quality and IQ will be on that level as well.

https://kenrockwell.com/nikon/images...56-pf/left.jpg

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Old Wednesday 29th August 2018, 15:32   #52
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Probably, as the image is from nikon's website:

https://cdn.photographylife.com/wp-c...mm-f4-size.jpg
Thanks 1460grms bare -> 1630grms with tripod collar + foot ..... I suppose we had all hoped for lighter .....

Crunching a few numbers on the back of an envelope, I think the 600 f5.6 will come in somewhere from ~1.75kg at best to ~1.9kg bare, plus 170grms for the tripod mount ...... that's pretty damn close to the Siggy/Tammy consumer supertelephoto zoom twins ....

So, half a foot shorter, half a stop faster, very slightly less to pretty similar weight, and probably about 50% longer mfd (grrr!), and ~3x the cost of the Tammy! .... all for slightly better AF, and IQ (hopefully) ........

The 600 is the one that interests me - probably on a D500 ...... but it's going to take some pretty serious comparison with the Tammy G2 and D7200 .......

A 600mm f4 PF would be a no brainer though




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Old Wednesday 29th August 2018, 15:44   #53
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Originally Posted by opticoholic View Post
If I didn't already have 2 different nice bird photography lenses, the 500mm f/5.6 PF might be at the top of my list.

Personally I would be much more tempted by a 600mm f/5.6 PF, but that it is still nothing more than a rumor based on a patent, right? I guess we can hope maybe it is more than that, because (a) surely some of the work done to make the 500mm will reduce the cost of adding the 400 and 600mm versions, and (b) didn't Chosun say that Nikon's stated priorities include telephoto lenses, and certainly they must understand there is some demand; not everyone is willing to pay $10K - $12K for the traditional 400-500-600mm super telephotos...

If they are smart they will also announce both F and native S mount versions, and I know I'm not the first one to say this...

Dave
Dave, earlier in the thread there was a link to a rumour from "a very reliable source" that said the 600 should arrive towards the end of the year (where we are rapidly heading now! :) ...... though with the production quantity delays of the 500, this may have slipped nearer to Christmas, or dreading - even next year. We should learn more at Photokina soon.



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Old Sunday 9th September 2018, 09:35   #54
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Hands on 'field test' by a Nikon Europe Beta Product Tester. The size looks very handy compared to the 500/f4, and the IQ looks ok at first glance - real close scrutiny shows that the 500/f4 FL is still king
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/3889...f-in-kamchatka

Come on the 600 ! :)




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Old Sunday 9th September 2018, 12:11   #55
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Hands on 'field test' by a Nikon Europe Beta Product Tester. The size looks very handy compared to the 500/f4, and the IQ looks ok at first glance - real close scrutiny shows that the 500/f4 FL is still king
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/3889...f-in-kamchatka

Come on the 600 ! :)

Chosun
Not quite, looks more like the focus plane (or the moving bear) is off as the upper part of the photo actually is sharper for the 500 PF.
I think the potential difference in sharpness will probably be of mostly academical interest. A bit better AF and the extra stop in low light might be useful in the 500/4 though.

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Old Monday 10th September 2018, 17:45   #56
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Not quite, looks more like the focus plane (or the moving bear) is off as the upper part of the photo actually is sharper for the 500 PF.
I think the potential difference in sharpness will probably be of mostly academical interest. A bit better AF and the extra stop in low light might be useful in the 500/4 though.
I see what you mean - I think the only softness I can see in the 500/f4 pic relative to the PF/f5.6 is the outer part of the ear and parts of the paw .... I'd say that's movement from the bear having a good old scratch. For the rest of it though the 500/f4 shows more detail.

I would have expected it to be closer in all honesty. You are already taking a 1 stop of light hit, and it's not cheap (relative to Nikon's other f5.6, the 200-500 .... it would be interesting to see a comparison between those two as well).

It's the 600PF f5.6 that I'm really interested in though (unless Canon beats them to the punch with their 600 f4 DO ! - then it's bye bye Nikon :) ....... but the way Nikon is pricing these things way up there, any 600PF f5.6 is going to have to go up against the Tammy 150-600 G2 and clearly best it to be in the running ......

Hopefully our Ozzie dollar has started to climb out of the toilet by then too



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Old Monday 10th September 2018, 18:52   #57
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Out of interest what lenses/systems do you guys use at the moment? Jumping ship isn't cheap if you are already heavily invested and besides, it seems to swing from one company to another as to who is leading the way.
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Old Monday 10th September 2018, 20:55   #58
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I see what you mean - I think the only softness I can see in the 500/f4 pic relative to the PF/f5.6 is the outer part of the ear and parts of the paw .... I'd say that's movement from the bear having a good old scratch. For the rest of it though the 500/f4 shows more detail.

I would have expected it to be closer in all honesty. You are already taking a 1 stop of light hit, and it's not cheap (relative to Nikon's other f5.6, the 200-500 .... it would be interesting to see a comparison between those two as well).

It's the 600PF f5.6 that I'm really interested in though (unless Canon beats them to the punch with their 600 f4 DO ! - then it's bye bye Nikon :) ....... but the way Nikon is pricing these things way up there, any 600PF f5.6 is going to have to go up against the Tammy 150-600 G2 and clearly best it to be in the running ......

Hopefully our Ozzie dollar has started to climb out of the toilet by then too

Chosun
Closer to the bear or beer?

That is a crappy test and I really don't see any value in it if you want to compare the lens IQ in a serious way.

Both shots taken handheld, ISO and shutter speed is different (see EXIF), framing is different, focus plane is different. The subject is moving and it's not even the same light/shadows in the photos. Yeees...

We'll have to wait for more full res shots to see how close these lenses are in IQ.

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Old Tuesday 11th September 2018, 04:23   #59
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Williams View Post
Out of interest what lenses/systems do you guys use at the moment? Jumping ship isn't cheap if you are already heavily invested and besides, it seems to swing from one company to another as to who is leading the way.
Dave, I'm using a Nikon D7200 with Tamron 150-600 f6.3 G2.

I also have a Tokina 12-28mm f4 Pro DX (which gives me an effective focal range of 18-56mm accounting for the 1.5x DX crop, and using the 1.3x in-camera crop at the top end - pretty handy).

Both versatile and lightish for what they are, but I'm looking for more speed and IQ. My issue is a ruptured lumbar disc injury playing up, so the big 600 f4's are out (Canon's new 600 f4 MkIII at 3kg sounds interesting, but is probably still too physically long for me - too much leverage. I know other people handle more weight/size, sometimes with ease - but that's just me at this point, and I do love the walk around aspect. The, at this stage, gestating/mythical? 600 f4 DO at about ~2.5kg and compact sounds ideal and would be around my max desired weight).

A 300 f2.8 + 2xTC, or 400 f4 DO II + 1.4xTC would give me a boost in speed and IQ, handles nicely and fits the weight criteria (I can manage these setups for hours), but so far only Canon offers these formats at a light enough weight, and I'm not overly impressed with the 7DMkII body's DR and hence IQ. There's not even a whisper of a MkIII yet (though Canon tend to be much quieter and less 'leaky' about their products in development than Nikon). Why Nikon hasn't come in with a 300 f2.8 FL nearer 2kg yet is beyond me, at 3kg it's not even a consideration - Canon has really totally stolen the march in lenses at this point.

The most likely prospect for a slight upgrade at this stage would be the rumoured 600 f5.6 PF probably on a D500(S?), though if it's not clearly better than the current rig, I can wait (and save!) for Canon's big DO as I don't have much time/fitness to get out at the moment anyway. I was interested to see if Nikon would release these new PF's in native Z mount, but it seems that won't be the case.

I'm not that heavily invested in a system that I won't totally write off what I have and completely change. Something like the 58mm f0.95 Noct sounds appealing, but I think it's another iteration or two or three, before I'm tempted Z way as an overall system. I think the future is mirrorless, but at this stage there's a good 5 to even 10 years of DSLR shooting available - I don't think Nikon or Canon will be in a rush to offer native mirrorless supertelephotos any time soon ..... they'd probably be quite happy for you to invest in both systems!

It's almost like a game of cat and mouse between the photographic giants and their customers at this point !



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Old Tuesday 11th September 2018, 07:22   #60
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Closer to the bear or beer?

That is a crappy test and I really don't see any value in it if you want to compare the lens IQ in a serious way.

Both shots taken handheld, ISO and shutter speed is different (see EXIF), framing is different, focus plane is different. The subject is moving and it's not even the same light/shadows in the photos. Yeees...

We'll have to wait for more full res shots to see how close these lenses are in IQ.
Yep, agree with that



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Old Tuesday 11th September 2018, 07:26   #61
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Some independent jpeg sample shots of the 500PF f5.6 on a D500, and D3X, from Optyczne, Poland - not sure if these are all handheld or not ....
https://translate.googleusercontent....Z8_x-1E0_Jkx1A



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Old Tuesday 11th September 2018, 09:57   #62
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Some independent jpeg sample shots of the 500PF f5.6 on a D500, and D3X, from Optyczne, Poland - not sure if these are all handheld or not ....
https://translate.googleusercontent....Z8_x-1E0_Jkx1A

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Doesn't look awful, but not brilliant either. To me the files lack a bit of contrast and clarity. Might be heat haze, some shots are pretty long distance, I don't know, but it doesn't look quite like the prime-like crispness I'm used to from other primes. The strong AA-filter on the D3X might affect the result as well and it's only OOC JPG:s.

The 500mm PF does look a bit better than the 300/4 PF but considering the difference in MTF:s one might expect a bit more.

Hopefully Lenstip.com will make a full review of the 500 PF.

The shots from the Oly 300mm/4 pro or Leica Elmarit 200mm/2.8 looks more like how a prime should look to me, crisp, contrasty and clear.

https://www.lenstip.com/478.12-Lens_...ple_shots.html

https://www.lenstip.com/521.12-Lens_...ple_shots.html

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Old Tuesday 11th September 2018, 11:40   #63
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Doesn't look awful, but not brilliant either. To me the files lack a bit of contrast and clarity. Might be heat haze, some shots are pretty long distance, I don't know, but it doesn't look quite like the prime-like crispness I'm used to from other primes. The strong AA-filter on the D3X might affect the result as well and it's only OOC JPG:s.

The 500mm PF does look a bit better than the 300/4 PF but considering the difference in MTF:s one might expect a bit more.

Hopefully Lenstip.com will make a full review of the 500 PF.

The shots from the Oly 300mm/4 pro or Leica Elmarit 200mm/2.8 looks more like how a prime should look to me, crisp, contrasty and clear.

https://www.lenstip.com/478.12-Lens_...ple_shots.html

https://www.lenstip.com/521.12-Lens_...ple_shots.html
Yeah, I agree.
I went back and had a look at a few more from the 500PF f5.6, as well as from the Oly and Leica primes you linked. Surprisingly there seems to be a lot of variability in a lot of the shots. If I look at the best of each of the small number of photographs that I sampled from each lens, then they seem roughly in the ballpark.

Same goes for the comparable Canon 400 f4 DO II , some good, some ok, and some pretty crappy. Useful since this lens is known to have a pretty good reputation, and pretty nice MTF curves to back it up. https://www.lenstip.com/509.12-Lens_...ple_shots.html

I'd be very interested to see some more rigorous tripod, mirror up, remote or timer release converted raws comparing:
500 ...... Nikon 200-500 with the 500 PF with 500 Sigma f4 with Nikon 500 f4 FL , and
600 ...... Tamron 150-600 G2 with the 600PF with Nikon 600 f4 FL

My guess is that the PF's may edge ahead of the (pro)sumer zooms, but at the expense of 3x the cost ..... wide open performance is going to be critical.



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Old Tuesday 11th September 2018, 15:23   #64
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Yeah, I agree.
I went back and had a look at a few more from the 500PF f5.6, as well as from the Oly and Leica primes you linked. Surprisingly there seems to be a lot of variability in a lot of the shots. If I look at the best of each of the small number of photographs that I sampled from each lens, then they seem roughly in the ballpark.

Same goes for the comparable Canon 400 f4 DO II , some good, some ok, and some pretty crappy. Useful since this lens is known to have a pretty good reputation, and pretty nice MTF curves to back it up. https://www.lenstip.com/509.12-Lens_...ple_shots.html

I'd be very interested to see some more rigorous tripod, mirror up, remote or timer release converted raws comparing:
500 ...... Nikon 200-500 with the 500 PF with 500 Sigma f4 with Nikon 500 f4 FL , and
600 ...... Tamron 150-600 G2 with the 600PF with Nikon 600 f4 FL

My guess is that the PF's may edge ahead of the (pro)sumer zooms, but at the expense of 3x the cost ..... wide open performance is going to be critical.

Chosun
Yes, the operator of the camera seems to have serious problems with getting the birds eye into focus. More rigorous tests are definitely needed. The flat surfaces should look better though.

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Old Wednesday 12th September 2018, 21:49   #65
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Lenstip gave the 500mm PF their Editors Choice award. I've always liked Lenstip reviews. They are very thorough and consistent and they do not pull punches when the test results are less than impressive. I'll say it again: this 500mm PF looks like a hot lens for bird photographers and I'd be interested if I didn't already have a 500mm f/4 (I have the older 500mm f/4G VR which is 8.5 lbs!). I'll keep hoping for a 600mm f/5.6E PF, and not f/4 because I think a 600mm f/4E PF would cost at least the same as the current 600mm f/4, i.e., $12K+. I usually prefer to stop down 1 stop anyway.

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Old Wednesday 12th September 2018, 22:26   #66
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Addendum: Actually the sample bird photos on that Lenstip review are not overly impressive, but I don't see any details as to whether a tripod was used or VR engaged, etc. In any case I expect noticeably better from my old 500mm f/4. Here is a jpeg 100% crop example of what I typically get with my 500 f/4 (D500 + 500mm f/4 on tripod with VR on, 1/1000s, f/8, ISO 800, flash, minimal editing).
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Old Thursday 13th September 2018, 07:24   #67
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It's a bit unfortunate that LensTip.com use a 10 year old camera having only 24MP on FF (and AA-filter) in their lab tests.
But in this case it seems that 24MP on FF is not limiting rather than the resolution of the lens.
I suspect that the lens might not be quite up to delivering 20MP on DX?
At least not for pixel peeping at 100%*.

*Looking at a 100% crop from a 24MP file on a 100-150 PPI computer screen from perhaps 30-40 cm distance, corresponds to a very large print size, but still, there are lenses that look sharp att 100% on screen.

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Old Thursday 13th September 2018, 12:17   #68
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I'm not ready to draw any firm conclusion that the lens is "soft" in comparison to the 500 f/4. I think we need to wait for more careful head-to-head comparisons. The example I posted from my 500 f/4 is not really a fair comparison... too many variables... But it occurred to me looking at the Lenstip examples of sparrows that I could share a crop of a sparrow at approximately the same relative scale, so I did. My guess is that the actual differences in image quality between the f/4 Nikon/Sigma vs. f/5.6 PF will be very minor, maybe only evident when pixel peeping. Let's wait and see.
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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 02:01   #69
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Dave, Vespo, all,

I think it's very difficult to draw any conclusions about the sharpness of the 500 PF from the lenstip tests or sample shots which show wide variation in settings and in bodies used between lenses. A lot of the sample shots are taken at very low shutter speeds, so I would think we're not seeing all that the lens is capable of. Only one shot on the D500 was at 1/2500 sec.

If you compare their image resolution tests against such highly regarded lenses as the Canon 400 f4 DO II, and the 300 f2.8 L IS II, then we can see that at f5.6 and f8 they are all very similar results for the centre of the frame. ie. in that 40 - 46lpmm range. When TC's are added to these two, then the 500 PF seems good at comparable focal lengths.

I think the only conclusion we can firmly draw from this review is that the IQ of the 500PF rapidly drops off at f11 and above due to diffraction effects. Still, it performs well at and between wide open and at f8 - probably the most used aperture range in practice.

I will reserve judgement on this particular lens - but beyond being an indicator of what we can expect with the 600 PF it doesn't interest me. That's the one that I'm waiting on. Though if Nikon decides to put a ridiculous price hike on the 600 and send it over $4000, or not bring it in at 1.8kg or less, or not clearly best the Nikon 200-500 and Tamron 150-600 G2's IQ, then that may see my interest in that one evaporate too!



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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 02:21   #70
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"Lance B" on dpreview posted some shots including a few birds, in this thread:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4319647

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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 04:13   #71
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"Lance B" on dpreview posted some shots including a few birds, in this thread:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4319647

Dave
Nice find Dave! The large versions of those shots certainly inspire more confidence (particularly the perigrines) - they are more in line with what you would expect after looking at the 500PF's quite good MTF charts ........ I think there might be hope yet

It's up to Nikon now to do the right thing (for me) with the 600 ..... and then get cracking on a 600 f4 PF !!!!




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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 05:00   #72
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Yeah,
I will keep watching for more cumulative evidence/examples, but I'm expecting this 500 PF lens to produce very nice results, especially in bright direct light. No, maybe not quite as good as the faster non-PF $10-12K lenses, but pretty close in good light. I'm with you on everything you said about hoping for a 600 PF, except I would prefer a little slower smaller f/5.6 maximum aperture because as I said, it would be more affordable for me... But even if a 600 f/5.6 PF does appear, there's a good chance I will just stick with my 500 f/4 G for a year or two and watch and see what develops in the native mirrorless options. I could imagine myself someday switching to exclusively using Olympus/micro-4/3 for my bird photography, if/when they finally improve mirrorless C-AF/tracking up to D500 level.
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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 07:00   #73
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"Lance B" on dpreview posted some shots including a few birds, in this thread:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4319647

Dave
Looks good but the photos are downscaled quite a lot. Nothing wrong with the bokeh though.

Hopefully Steve Perry will do a review of the 500 PF on his youtube-channel and maybe a shootout with the faster primes.

Lens is not yet in any stores around here and they knew nothing on when it would arrive so I suspect it might take some time before I can get my hands on it.
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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 07:50   #74
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Dave, Vespo, all,

I think it's very difficult to draw any conclusions about the sharpness of the 500 PF from the lenstip tests or sample shots which show wide variation in settings and in bodies used between lenses. A lot of the sample shots are taken at very low shutter speeds, so I would think we're not seeing all that the lens is capable of. Only one shot on the D500 was at 1/2500 sec.

If you compare their image resolution tests against such highly regarded lenses as the Canon 400 f4 DO II, and the 300 f2.8 L IS II, then we can see that at f5.6 and f8 they are all very similar results for the centre of the frame. ie. in that 40 - 46lpmm range. When TC's are added to these two, then the 500 PF seems good at comparable focal lengths.

Chosun
The Nikon's MTF charts and also the LensTip MTF50 (perceived sharpness test) on 24MP FF seem ok, but...

I assume that the f5.6 aperture will be a limit for maximal resolution here, a f2.8 or f4 will always be able to deliver more resolution. And in this case the lens rather then camera, might be the limit when reaching 45MP (or 20MP on DX).

I just wonder if there will be much point using D850 or D500 on this lens considering image sharpness and resolution. My feeling is that using a D750 in 1.5x crop mode (10MP) might look as sharp as D500's 20MP scaled down to 10MP.

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Old Friday 14th September 2018, 13:42   #75
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Another discussion of the Lenstip review and the somewhat unimpressive samples here:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4319424

I read this because I have the Olympus 300 f/4, which I like a lot; even with the 1.4X teleconverter I think it often matches the image quality from my much heavier Nikon 500 f/4 without any teleconverter. In-camera processing and sharpening is something to keep in mind. Olympus is pretty aggressive with sharpening, but even so I sometimes have trouble making the images from the larger Nikon lens look as good. In any case, regarding the Lenstip samples, someone in the thread above found this from the Lenstip FAQ page:
https://www.lenstip.com/126.1-articl...estions.html#5

"It is also worth noticing that all sample photos are taken with the noise reduction switched off and sharpening set on minimum or low, depending on a given camera, in order to make the comparison between them easier. As most of users don’t set the sharpening so low in their cameras our sample shots might seem weak to them."
Dave
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