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Nikon patent 400mm, 500mm and 600mm f/5.6 Phase Fresnel (PF) lenses

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Old Friday 2nd February 2018, 05:01   #1
nikonmike
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Nikon patent 400mm, 500mm and 600mm f/5.6 Phase Fresnel (PF) lenses

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/02/01/t...f-lenses.aspx/
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Old Friday 2nd February 2018, 13:27   #2
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If they're as superb as the diminutive 300mmPF, these will be a welcome addition to the arsenal of ageing birders.....:)
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Old Friday 2nd February 2018, 13:37   #3
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Originally Posted by Pasquier View Post
If they're as superb as the diminutive 300mmPF, these will be a welcome addition to the arsenal of ageing birders.....:)
I just hope the 600mm PF lens will work on the Nikon J5 (via FT1 adapter).
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Old Friday 2nd February 2018, 14:16   #4
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I have been wishing for longer and lighter f5.6 lenses for several years so it looks really interesting.
A 500mm/5.6 at around 1.5 kg would be a very nice tool for walk around bird photography.
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Old Friday 2nd February 2018, 16:05   #5
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A lot of complaints that they should have had wider apertures but i don't see that as a problem, i feel they will be designed to complement the mirrorless range.
Sensors and AF in low light has improved beyond the 1 stop these lenses have lost.
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Old Saturday 3rd February 2018, 05:49   #6
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The f/5.6 maximum aperture is ok with me so long as the lens provides very near maximum quality when wide open. With that caveat, I agree with NikonMike above. I could definitely be interested in the 600, but of course this is not an official announcement, just a patent filing.
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Old Saturday 3rd February 2018, 05:53   #7
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Originally Posted by opticoholic View Post
The f/5.6 maximum aperture is ok with me so long as the lens provides very near maximum quality when wide open. With that caveat, I agree with NikonMike above. I could definitely be interested in the 600, but of course this is not an official announcement, just a patent filing.
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There seems to have been an advance lately where loads of lenses are now very good wide open, as you say let's hope these are.
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Old Friday 9th February 2018, 15:04   #8
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These lenses sound really interesting!

Given the 300 f4 PF, I don't really get the need for the 400 f5.6, but the 5 and 600 f5.6's should gain a fair bit of traction if they come in at the right IQ, weight, VR, AF, price equation.

The 600 would have to be sub easy 2kg. Seeing that my Tammy 150-600 f6.3 spends just about all the time at the long end on 1.3x crop, then this new Niki could win quite a few converts.

What I really want to see though is a 600mm f4 PF ..... C'mon Nikon ! Don't just abandon the space to Canon !!


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Old Monday 26th February 2018, 00:02   #9
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What I really want to see though is a 600mm f4 PF ..... C'mon Nikon ! Don't just abandon the space to Canon !!

Chosun
Would a 600 f/4 PF lens from Nikon be any less expensive than the regular 600 f/4 E FL (currently priced at an eye-watering $12K+) ? I'm just asking because I really don't know, but I'm guessing that a 600 f/4 PF would still be very expensive. However I think 600 f/5.6 PF would be quite a bit less costly, and also an f/5.6 design would probably be somewhat lighter/smaller than f/4.

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Old Monday 26th February 2018, 01:41   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opticoholic View Post
Would a 600 f/4 PF lens from Nikon be any less expensive than the regular 600 f/4 E FL (currently priced at an eye-watering $12K+) ? I'm just asking because I really don't know, but I'm guessing that a 600 f/4 PF would still be very expensive. However I think 600 f/5.6 PF would be quite a bit less costly, and also an f/5.6 design would probably be somewhat lighter/smaller than f/4.

Dave
We can only hope!

Apart from real financial drivers like recouping research and development costs over what are likely to be relatively smaller quantities of product sold over its life cycle, we are probably well into the realms of pure marketing dictates. ie. Regardless of whether these Diffractive Optics (Phase Fresnel) lenses are lighter and therefore require less material and hence cost, they are likely to be slotted in to the line up at a suitably high price so as not to cannabalize sales of other super telephotos. Certainly this is what Canon has done .... Nikon not so much.

There is an opportunity there for Nikon to really upset the pricing apple cart with some more appealing pricing to the consumer - significantly undercutting Canon. Canon's existing DO (the 400 f4) and mooted 600 f4 DO operate at high price elasticity points. No matter how desirable (and they are very much so, now that glare issues have been effectively eliminated, and their MTF performance is way up there), they will always be out of reach for a fair chunk of the market with exorbitant pricing like they have. Nikon's 300 f4 PF is relatively reasonably priced in comparison. By keeping cost increases for the big guns (400 f4, 600f4) to a minimum they could make giant strides in market share, inspire market confidence, and drive traffic to their excellent camera bodies.

I hope the Nikon strategists are driving the show more so than the bean counters .....

As you say the f5.6 range should be an entirely much cheaper proposition - they have all the third party superzoom telephotos to compete with, as well as the Niki 200-500 and the rumoured Canon 200-600 f5.6.

Should a Nikon 600 f4 PF be designed for a curved sensor (hoping), then the weight reduction and cost savings can be even further compounded. If those guys at the glass factory awake from their slumber then we could be in for quite a win-win-win-win treat ..... better, lighter and - cheaper products for us consumers, - more market share for Nikon, AND, - more profitability too

Exciting times ahead :)


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Old Monday 26th February 2018, 07:40   #11
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If Nikon decides to manufacture longer PF lenses in China cost might be cut a quite a bit, but also quality levels.
The 300/4 PF is not famous for consistent image quality unfortunately.
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Old Monday 26th March 2018, 12:10   #12
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
These lenses sound really interesting!

Given the 300 f4 PF, I don't really get the need for the 400 f5.6, but the 5 and 600 f5.6's should gain a fair bit of traction if they come in at the right IQ, weight, VR, AF, price equation.
Agree - I've recently added the 1.4 vIII converter to my 300 PF with no apparent reduction in IQ or focus acquisition, so I've effectively got a f5.6 420mm already...500 or 600 would be a different matter, especially if they still work OK with the 1.4x converter
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Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 01:48   #13
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Nikonrumors.com has a posting stating that a 600mm f5.6 PF lens will be released soon.....could be very interesting!
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Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 05:47   #14
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IMO, UK price for 600mm PF will be 6500.
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Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 10:41   #15
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IMO, UK price for 600mm PF will be 6500.
Are you crazy !

We're talking about a 600mm f5.6 PF here ...... not an f4 !!

Interesting that it is rumoured to be 33cm long ...... that sounds a bit long to me. I would expect more like 25cm.

This lens is going to have to compete with the circa ~1400 USD Tamron G2 150-600, and the Nikon 200-500, and I would expect it to come in ~2kg (we can hope on the low side :)

I would expect pricing would have to be within cooee too .....

Canon may debut their regular refractive 200-600 f5.6 later this year or next, and it may be in that ~ $1500 - $2000 range just guessing (since they said it's not an "L" lens, and therefore putting it under the 100-400mm f5.6 ISII L)

Nikon's 300mm f4 PF is ~ $2000, so I dunno, somewhere in the $2-3K USD range ??

Looking forward to this one - hope it comes with an updated D500S to go with it !



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Old Tuesday 17th April 2018, 19:59   #16
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Well a 600mm f4 here is 11,000, usually 1 stop less is half the price. PF adds more cost. 300 PF is about 30% more than a regular 300mm f4 @ 1,600. 600mm f5.6 is like a 300mm f2.8 with a 2x TC = 4,500 + 375 + PF premium is around 6,500 I reckon. Not like a 200-500mm price at all.
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Old Wednesday 18th April 2018, 02:28   #17
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I hope not !

I can't see this lens coming in much below 2kg ..... about ~ 1.5kg at best ...... ?

So in comparison to the 1400 USD Tammy and Niki super zooms, this new Nikon 600mm PF is looking at an advantage of 1/2 a stop in speed, or about 1/2 a kilo in weight respectively. It will also have the relatively imminent 200-600mm f5.6 Canon to compete with. Unless this new PF Niki has some remarkable superior IQ ..... ?

On the other side of the coin which is where you are coming from:

Pentax's 560mm f5.6 (130mmdia x 520mm long and ~3kg) is 4000USD
Canon's 300mm f2.8 L ISII is 6100 USD and 2xTC III for ~$500 makes ~6600USD. Compare that to the 400mm f4 DO II for 6900USD and 1.4xTC III at ~$400 makes ~7300USD [~5000] (about an 11% premium for the DO rig).
Compare also Canon's 200-400mm f4 with built-in 1.4xTC for 11000 USD ! and Nikon's own 180-400mm f4 with built-in 1.4xTC for 12400USD !!

I think there are small volumes and high profit margins involved in these high end lenses, whereas I expect this new Nikon 600mm PF to be more of a volume player - like it's own, (Canon's on the way one) and 3rd party superzooms ......

I certainly hope it comes in more toward the bottom of the pricing range .....

And I hope Nikon pull their finger out and get us a 600mm f4 PF pronto too !!!



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Old Wednesday 18th April 2018, 04:51   #18
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The recommended prices for Canon's lenses are much higher here in the UK. The equivalent in US $'s for a 300mm f2.8 is around $7850, the 400DO about $8500.
Just because it's an f5.6 lens won't necessarily make it less expensive either, Canon's current most expensive lens is the 800mm f5.6 at $18,200.

If you look at grey market, Hong Kong prices are not that much different for a 300, more expensive for a 400DO but you can save $3500 on the 800mm where you can get one for a bargain $14,600.

So don't hold your breath on getting a cheap lens anytime soon!
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Old Sunday 22nd April 2018, 14:14   #19
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I think this new 600mm f5.6 PF lens raises a handful of interesting questions ..... 1. IQ 2. Weight 3. AF performance 4. VR performance, and 5. Cost.

This is what the Nikon Rumours article exactly had to say:-
"The new 600mm f/5.6 PF lens is also expected to be significantly lighter and cheaper compared to the current 600mm f/4"

Given that the 600mm f4 FL weighs 3.8kg and costs 12000 USD and importantly is an f4 , there is a LOT of room to move, and just what "significantly" exactly means in this context is anyone's guess. The dictionary talks of 'worthy of attention' , 'easy to see, or by a large amount' , or that has 'special meaning'.

I think it helps in answering that handful of questions, to consider where Nikon will position this lens and how it fits into the existing lens line up, future lenses (the 4 & 500 f5.6's), and any competition offerings.

We know that Canon's existing 400mm f4 DO ISII is a high end offering with correspondingly excellent MTF performance. It's performance even with TC's is as good as the Nikon 300mm f4 PF lens on its own. I expect that Canon's 600mm f4 DO will be a similar high end model with pricing in line with the refractive 600/f4.

I think Nikon could go head to head with the quality level of Canon's 400/f4 DO II , but think they will choose to position it more as a 'Prosumer' type level as they have with their 300/f4 PF. It is interesting that the patent diagram seems to show the diffraction grating on the rear of a lens behind the objective triplet, as opposed to encased in glass like Canon's 400/f4 DO II. If this is a literal representation, it could support more 'Prosumer' level positioning.

1. This will mean that the IQ level is similar - ie. a handy increase on the MTF curves above third party 150-600mm superzooms (and Nikon's own 200-500) , but not up to the near perfection levels of the high end f4 super telephotos (and perhaps even - wishing - a 600mm f4 PF).

2. Weight would have to account for the extra ~100grams of glass and barrel length above their 200-500, less the complicated zoom mechanics. I could hope for 1.8kg (4lb) but I think 2.27kg (5lb) is more likely. I think this weight will hold whether it is a 'Prosumer' or 'Pro' level positioning. The 'Prosumer' one would be made out of composites and built to a market positioning. Any 'Pro' level incarnation would have a magnesium chassis and FL glass too to keep weight down, and be built to a rugged 'Pro' level quality, in smaller quantities, and much higher profit margins.

3. The AF performance should be on par with the 300/f4 PF's - it looks like the increased lens count is toward that end of the lens, and may serve that purpose despite the loss of a stop of light at maximum aperture.

4. There is no reason for the VR performance to be any less than cutting edge even as a prosumer lens. That means 4.5 stops and 3 mode VR (normal, panning, and tripod).

5. Cost is very much dependent on the positioning. Assuming the 'Prosumer' call is correct, then we have to consider the existing line up and competition to give a more accurate picture. With the third party superzooms (and Nikon's 200-500) at ~1400 USD, the 300/f4 PF at ~2000USD, Canon's 100-400 L II at ~2000, and Nikon's 80-400 at ~2300 USD, then I would think the 600/f5.6 PF would come in at ~3000 USD (maybe 3500? USD if Nikon can get away with it? they certainly tried it on with the 80-400 ! ) . This would leave room for the 500/f5.6 (~1.75kg) to come in at ~2500USD ? . The 400/f5.6 I don't know - I can't even see a good reason for making that format ......

I think there will be high demand for this lens, so that makes it a volume /lower per unit profit proposition and the need for a facility to make it in high volumes. Just my guesses ....... though I suppose even if it comes in at 'Pro' level at twice the cost I suggested, it is still a 'significant' saving over a 600mm f4 FL. Maybe they will save that 'Pro' role for the 500/5.6 PF ? or even a range of longer f4 PF's ?? ......



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Old Thursday 14th June 2018, 10:49   #20
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Seems a 500mm f5.6 PF will be first - DPReview

Guess we'll know more soon - personally I was really looking forward to a 600mm PF - the 500mm PF being too close to the 200-500mm zoom.
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Old Thursday 14th June 2018, 13:01   #21
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Pasq, I don't know that necessarily confirms the 500 as coming out first. Back in April this year the rumour was that the 600 would be announced during summer (northern hemisphere) , so there is hope yet. It was further flagged that Photokina in September would be the first public reveal .... maybe the whole range will come out together.

Like you I'm hanging out for the 600. I think it's safe to say the 500 at ~1.75kg will be handy, but really you need every mm you can get for birds so it's only the 600 I want. I really don't see much point in a 500, let alone a 400 unless wildlife is your thing, but then I think I'd prefer the zoom for added flexibility.

I hope they get to work on a range of f4 models too - now that would be nice!



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Old Thursday 14th June 2018, 13:22   #22
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Seems a 500mm f5.6 PF will be first - DPReview

Guess we'll know more soon - personally I was really looking forward to a 600mm PF - the 500mm PF being too close to the 200-500mm zoom.
1250g at the most and
the 500mm + D500/D850 would be perfect for walk-around purposes without monopod. (Which I don't think the 200-500mm really is.)
But the VR got to be as good.
Price twice the 300mm in worst case.
Made in China.
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Old Thursday 14th June 2018, 15:22   #23
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Originally Posted by Vespobuteo View Post
1250g at the most
Nikon writes:
Quote:
Despite its 500mm focal length, the lens is small and light enough to use hand-held in a wide variety of situations where a photographer must capture unpredictable and fast-moving subjects, including sporting events and wildlife photography.
Sounds more like 500g.
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Old Thursday 14th June 2018, 17:24   #24
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Nikon writes:

Sounds more like 500g.
Extrapolating from the 300mm PF gives 1250 g.

Sounds more like you will have to go to the gym more often...
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Old Thursday 14th June 2018, 17:44   #25
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It's still going to need ~90mm objective lenses, and the patent showed lots of glass up that end before the diffractive element came into play - you have to account for the area of that rather than do a straight linear extrapolation from the 300PF. So I think it will be more than that ....

Still, anywhere in that ~1250g - ~1750g range is going to be very much more portable and pointable than other big lenses on the market (should be a very similar order of magnitude in practice to the DSLR Canon 400/5.6 and 100-400/5.6)


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