Susan Manchester
Well-known member
Is the Green Hermit (Phaethornis guy) named for French naturalist J. Guy? If so, does anyone know where I could find information about him? If not, who is this species named for?
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Green Hermit (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Susan Manchester
- Start date
Peter Kovalik
Well-known member
Phaethornis guy
Susan, by Jobling: guy J. Guy (fl. 1833) French naturalist (Phaethornis).
Susan, by Jobling: guy J. Guy (fl. 1833) French naturalist (Phaethornis).
mb1848
Well-known member
Guy was described by Lesson as an amateur with a collection of bird skins.
Therefore, I think the descriptor of naturalist is an exaggeration. I do not think he was French. Most of the references to him in the book are about him getting Lesson rare birds from London. I will keep looking for a Joseph Guy or John Guy who was a rich amateur with a large bird skin collection around 1832 in London.
.
We have knowledge of it to Mr. Guy who was in London and procured it.
“This beautiful species, very rare in France, and we need to thank Mr. Guy, who reported several skins from England, has been described for the first time by Mr. Williams Swainson, in his Zoological Illustrations,pl….”
{Nevermind, Bourjot Saint-Hilaire (1837-1838) wrote, "In a shipment made directly by the Trade New Holland [Australia] M. Guy, naturalist in Paris, Mr. Florent found this species among other skins. "We note that the author cites Florent Prevost by his first name, which is unusual. this
last was "assistant naturalist" of 1832 to 1870 in MNHN for which he acquired the specimen.} (Liste des types d’oiseaux des collections du Muséum national d’Histoire naturelle de Paris. 16 : Perroquets (Psittacidae) Claire VOISIN Jean-François VOISIN)
Lesson named another bird after him Calopsitta guy. May 1832 Illustrations of Zoology.
Therefore, I think the descriptor of naturalist is an exaggeration. I do not think he was French. Most of the references to him in the book are about him getting Lesson rare birds from London. I will keep looking for a Joseph Guy or John Guy who was a rich amateur with a large bird skin collection around 1832 in London.
.
We have knowledge of it to Mr. Guy who was in London and procured it.
“This beautiful species, very rare in France, and we need to thank Mr. Guy, who reported several skins from England, has been described for the first time by Mr. Williams Swainson, in his Zoological Illustrations,pl….”
{Nevermind, Bourjot Saint-Hilaire (1837-1838) wrote, "In a shipment made directly by the Trade New Holland [Australia] M. Guy, naturalist in Paris, Mr. Florent found this species among other skins. "We note that the author cites Florent Prevost by his first name, which is unusual. this
last was "assistant naturalist" of 1832 to 1870 in MNHN for which he acquired the specimen.} (Liste des types d’oiseaux des collections du Muséum national d’Histoire naturelle de Paris. 16 : Perroquets (Psittacidae) Claire VOISIN Jean-François VOISIN)
Lesson named another bird after him Calopsitta guy. May 1832 Illustrations of Zoology.
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Susan Manchester
Well-known member
I am wondering if there is any possibility that Guy was a typographical error for the following French naturalist:
Claude Gay, real name : Claudio Gay Mouret (born March 18, 1800 in Draguignan and died November 29, 1873), was a French botanist, naturalist and illustrator.
The Cordillera de Claudio Gay in the Atacama Region of Chile is named after him.
This explorer realized first searching enquiry about Chilean flora, fauna, geology and geography.
Came to Paris to study medicine, he quickly left this idea to become a researcher in natural history.
In 1828, he went to Chile to teach physics and natural history in a college in Santiago. In 1830, he accepted to become a researcher for the Chilean government.
Between 1831 and 1844, R. P. Lesson made numerous contributions to Chilean ornithology, describing various new species from
specimens sent by Claudio Gay or by his brother Adolphe Lesson.3
Claudio came back to France in 1832, and gave his collections to the Muséum national d'histoire naturelle de Paris (French National museum of natural history).
He returned to Chile in 1834 and explored the country again for four years. After having visited Peru in 1839, he lived in Santiago, where he wrote his Historia fisica y politica de Chile. This book was finished and published in France between 1844 and 1871.
He collected 5 quadrupeds, 213 birds, 21 reptiles, 47 fish, 2,557 invertebrates and 1,320 species. In addition, he brought numerous volumes with annotations and two volumes with 1,437 drawings of natural objects, geographic maps and information.4
In 1841, before he returned to France the following year to finish writing his Historia fisica y politica de Chile, the government of Jose Joaquín Prieto made him an honorary citizen of Chile. In 1863, he went to Chile for the last time.
Honours
Titular of the French Légion d'honneur ;
Correspondent member of the Muséum national d'histoire naturelle in Paris
Elected at the French Académie des sciences in 1856.
Sources
Marie-Louise Bauchot, Jacques Daget & Roland Bauchot, « Ichthyology in France at the Beginning of the 19th Century : The “Histoire Naturelle des Poissons“ of Cuvier (1769–1832) and Valenciennes (1794–1865) » in Collection building in ichthyology and herpetology, T.W.Pietsch, W.D.Anderson (dir.), American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists, 1997 : 27-80.
3.http://libsysdigi.library.uiuc.edu/oca/Books2007-11/birdsofchile191hell/birdsofchile191hell_djvu.txt
4.http://www.biografiadechile.cl/deta...tatus=S&TituloPagina=Historia de Chile&pos=11
Works
Noticias sobre las islas de Juan Fernandez, Valparaiso, 1840
Historia física y política de Chile, Paris, 1844–1848
Origine de la pomme de terre, Paris, 1851
Atlas de la historia física y política de Chile, Paris, 1854
Triple variation de l'aiguille d'amiante dans les parties Ouest de l'Amerique, Paris, 1854
Carte générale du Chile, Paris, 1855
Considérations sur les mines du Pérou, comparées aux mines du Chile, Paris, 1855
Notes sur le Brasil, Buenos Ayres, et Rio de Janeiro, Paris, 1856
Rapport à l'académie des sciences sur les mines des États-Unis, Paris, 1861
Claude Gay, real name : Claudio Gay Mouret (born March 18, 1800 in Draguignan and died November 29, 1873), was a French botanist, naturalist and illustrator.
The Cordillera de Claudio Gay in the Atacama Region of Chile is named after him.
This explorer realized first searching enquiry about Chilean flora, fauna, geology and geography.
Came to Paris to study medicine, he quickly left this idea to become a researcher in natural history.
In 1828, he went to Chile to teach physics and natural history in a college in Santiago. In 1830, he accepted to become a researcher for the Chilean government.
Between 1831 and 1844, R. P. Lesson made numerous contributions to Chilean ornithology, describing various new species from
specimens sent by Claudio Gay or by his brother Adolphe Lesson.3
Claudio came back to France in 1832, and gave his collections to the Muséum national d'histoire naturelle de Paris (French National museum of natural history).
He returned to Chile in 1834 and explored the country again for four years. After having visited Peru in 1839, he lived in Santiago, where he wrote his Historia fisica y politica de Chile. This book was finished and published in France between 1844 and 1871.
He collected 5 quadrupeds, 213 birds, 21 reptiles, 47 fish, 2,557 invertebrates and 1,320 species. In addition, he brought numerous volumes with annotations and two volumes with 1,437 drawings of natural objects, geographic maps and information.4
In 1841, before he returned to France the following year to finish writing his Historia fisica y politica de Chile, the government of Jose Joaquín Prieto made him an honorary citizen of Chile. In 1863, he went to Chile for the last time.
Honours
Titular of the French Légion d'honneur ;
Correspondent member of the Muséum national d'histoire naturelle in Paris
Elected at the French Académie des sciences in 1856.
Sources
Marie-Louise Bauchot, Jacques Daget & Roland Bauchot, « Ichthyology in France at the Beginning of the 19th Century : The “Histoire Naturelle des Poissons“ of Cuvier (1769–1832) and Valenciennes (1794–1865) » in Collection building in ichthyology and herpetology, T.W.Pietsch, W.D.Anderson (dir.), American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists, 1997 : 27-80.
3.http://libsysdigi.library.uiuc.edu/oca/Books2007-11/birdsofchile191hell/birdsofchile191hell_djvu.txt
4.http://www.biografiadechile.cl/deta...tatus=S&TituloPagina=Historia de Chile&pos=11
Works
Noticias sobre las islas de Juan Fernandez, Valparaiso, 1840
Historia física y política de Chile, Paris, 1844–1848
Origine de la pomme de terre, Paris, 1851
Atlas de la historia física y política de Chile, Paris, 1854
Triple variation de l'aiguille d'amiante dans les parties Ouest de l'Amerique, Paris, 1854
Carte générale du Chile, Paris, 1855
Considérations sur les mines du Pérou, comparées aux mines du Chile, Paris, 1855
Notes sur le Brasil, Buenos Ayres, et Rio de Janeiro, Paris, 1856
Rapport à l'académie des sciences sur les mines des États-Unis, Paris, 1861
Green Hermit does not occur in Chile. If Lesson was honoring a collector, I would expect it to be with a species that person collected (of course I might be wrong), but your data shows a visit to Peru (within the range) not until 1839 while the bird was described in 1833 if Wiki is correct.
Niels
Niels
Susan Manchester
Well-known member
I was so excited about getting this on here, Niels, that I did not even consider the dates. I thought Green Hermit was found in Chile, though, so I thought that might fit. Oh, well, back to the drawing board! I really appreciate the help! The museum told me to check genealogies for French families with the patronym guy, but that is proving more difficult than I thought, because in English there is a TV show called Family Guy, and I cannot read French. I will keep pursuing that idea, though.
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
• Green Hermit (Guyornis Ϯ) Phaethornis guy LESSON 1833 (OD in Post #7) as "Trochilus Guy" a k a Guy's Hermit or Guy's Humming-bird
M. [Monsieur] Guy was apparently alive in 1850 as he donated a specimen of "Trochilus Guy" to the "Muséum de Paris" ... "en décembre 1850". (here, p.3)
Sorry to say; I´ve found nothing additional, not even that single "J".
Björn
PS. Guy and Lesson are certainly not the easiest words to search for! Either one, or both, combined with Paris or London (alt. Londres) sure doesn´t help.
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M. [Monsieur] Guy was apparently alive in 1850 as he donated a specimen of "Trochilus Guy" to the "Muséum de Paris" ... "en décembre 1850". (here, p.3)
Sorry to say; I´ve found nothing additional, not even that single "J".
Björn
PS. Guy and Lesson are certainly not the easiest words to search for! Either one, or both, combined with Paris or London (alt. Londres) sure doesn´t help.
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
PS. Guy and Lesson are certainly not the easiest words to search for! Either one, or both, combined with Paris or London (alt. Londres) sure dosn´t help.
I know and often you come to the hospital founded by Thomas Guy. But from the dates he lived it is impossible that he is the guy (what a pun) we are looking for.
P.S. Calopsitta Guy at MNHN in Paris.
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Somehow I feel it could be Joseph Guy as in Guy's Pocket Cyclopaedia he wrote as well about birds e.g. here about the Swan or here about bird-lime to catch birds etc pp.
And I disagree about French amateur collector as mentioned in HBW Alive Key as here is written:
And I disagree about French amateur collector as mentioned in HBW Alive Key as here is written:
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
@ James. I am just curious. Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?
Where is written that he was of french origin? As indicated in my previous post even Lesson placed him to London.
Where is written that he was of french origin? As indicated in my previous post even Lesson placed him to London.
James Jobling
Well-known member
Monsieur Guy is mentioned a dozen times or so in Lesson's Trochilidées (1832-1833). He was an amateur and had a collection of birds, which he had procured in Paris and in London. In one acknowledgement Lesson reports that M. Guy brought back several skins from London (i.e. strongly indicating that Guy lived in France). Nowhere is it suggested that he was English or lived in London.
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
l_raty
laurent raty
No, I'd read "acheté à Londres" as "bought at" (i.e., in) London, not "from London". (Even if, admittedly, it is not completely unimaginable that in some contexts "Londres" might be used as a shortcut to denote an entity that sales things. But I'd not take this as the default meaning and I see no suggestion that this is the case here.)
One of the sentences in Compléments de Buffon is somewhat surprising, as it says that M. Guy sent the specimen to London. But, on the other hand, in Histoire naturelle des oiseaux de paradis et des épimaques, Lesson says "acheté à Londres" about the same bird...
[here] -- indeed. (Lesson calls him an amateur [here].)
Bourjot St-Hilaire [1837-38] described Psittacula florentis based on a specimen acquired from "M. Guy, naturaliste à Paris".
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
As usual, when dealing with French, I get parts of it wrong! Thanks Laurent, for putting me straight.
I will leave this thread (to much time vasted, in vain, me just fumbling around) but before I leave it in more capable hands ...simply following the clue "M. Guy, naturaliste à Paris", we have a certain "Guy, naturaliste" with the address (rue) "Guy-Labrosse, 9" (here and here), in Paris 1849-1852. A guy named Guy on Guy-Labrosse ... sigh!.
Maybe the same as this; "M. Guy, naturaliste préparateur" ... ?
If of any use?
See you all elsewhere & Good luck finding him!
Björn
I will leave this thread (to much time vasted, in vain, me just fumbling around) but before I leave it in more capable hands ...simply following the clue "M. Guy, naturaliste à Paris", we have a certain "Guy, naturaliste" with the address (rue) "Guy-Labrosse, 9" (here and here), in Paris 1849-1852. A guy named Guy on Guy-Labrosse ... sigh!.
Maybe the same as this; "M. Guy, naturaliste préparateur" ... ?
If of any use?
See you all elsewhere & Good luck finding him!
Björn
l_raty
laurent raty
There seem to be two of them, there... One, simply called "Guy", naturaliste, 9 rue Guy Labrosse, and another one, referred as "Guy aîné" ("Guy the elder" -- "aîné", used this way, would be a word added to his name to prevent confusion with a younger homonym), naturaliste, 2 rue de l'École de Médecine.I will leave this thread (to much time vasted, in vain, me just fumbling around) but before I leave it in more capable hands ...simply following the clue "M. Guy, naturaliste à Paris", we have a certain "Guy, naturaliste" with the address (rue) "Guy-Labrosse, 9" (here and here), in Paris 1849-1852. A guy named Guy on Guy-Labrosse ... sigh!.
Perhaps the elder one is more likely to have been around 20 years earlier, when Lesson named birds after him...? But that's admittedly just a guess. (FWIW, he published [this]; see also [here]. I have not been able to find his first name.)
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Anyway Guy aîné is mentioned as well in L'Écho du monde savant here the same journal where Delattre mentioned Ornysmia Guy. And he is mentioned in
Revue et magasin de zoologie pure et appliquée e.g. here and here another animal Manis Guy named after him.
If we see here in 1870 he was member of the Société Imperiale Zoologique d'Acclimatation with the adress:
and here member of Société d'histoire naturelle de Toulouse (but maybe a son of him? as no aîne)
and still alive in 1887 here
and accprding Inventaire des papiers de la Division des sciences et lettres du Ministère de l'instruction publique et des services qui en sont issus:
Revue et magasin de zoologie pure et appliquée e.g. here and here another animal Manis Guy named after him.
If we see here in 1870 he was member of the Société Imperiale Zoologique d'Acclimatation with the adress:
and here member of Société d'histoire naturelle de Toulouse (but maybe a son of him? as no aîne)
and still alive in 1887 here
and accprding Inventaire des papiers de la Division des sciences et lettres du Ministère de l'instruction publique et des services qui en sont issus:
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l_raty
laurent raty
There was still a Guy aîné, rue de Cugnaux in Toulouse, in 1894 [here]... There presenting himself as a pisciculteur (fish breeder), asking around about fishes that might be offered for sale.
But that's more than 60 years after the description of the hermit -- what are the odds of that Toulouse Guy being the same as the Paris Guy?
But that's more than 60 years after the description of the hermit -- what are the odds of that Toulouse Guy being the same as the Paris Guy?
