Zen-Ray or Vortex - tighter quality control and build quality? (1 Viewer)

Hi,

I have been wondering who has tighter control over their Chinese manufacturer
with the better quality control and overall build quality...Vortex or Zen-Ray?

From what I can gather, my guess is Vortex, as it seems Zen-Ray had and in some cases, continues to have build quality issues.

I have both and would be comfortable buying both again. With the Vortex warranty, you can't loose no matter what the issue. Out of two Fury, one Diamondback and a Kaibab, only the Kaibab had a overly stiff focus knob.

Bruce

raptorbfl said:

Hi,

I have been wondering who has tighter control over their Chinese manufacturer
with the better quality control and overall build quality...Vortex or Zen-Ray?

From what I can gather, my guess is Vortex, as it seems Zen-Ray had and in some cases, continues to have build quality issues.

Click to expand...

I have really not heard blanket complaints about either one.

raptorbfl said:

Hi,

I have been wondering who has tighter control over their Chinese manufacturer
with the better quality control and overall build quality...Vortex or Zen-Ray?

From what I can gather, my guess is Vortex, as it seems Zen-Ray had and in some cases, continues to have build quality issues.

Click to expand...

Most take what they're sold.

My all-brass Baywatch telescope came about because, when the CEO of a huge American telescope and binocular importing business complained about the fit and finish of the brass telescope he was importing, he was told . . . "take it or leave it." The manufacturers rarely work for us; it's usually the other way around.

Bill

WJC said:

Most take what they're sold.

My all-brass Baywatch telescope came about because, when the CEO of a huge American telescope and binocular importing business complained about the fit and finish of the brass telescope he was importing, he was told . . . "take it or leave it." The manufacturers rarely work for us; it's usually the other way around.

Bill

Click to expand...

Very interesting observation. Disillusioning for some maybe but it doesn't really surprise if you know how today's industry works (usually, there may be exceptions).

As you seem to know your stuff, Bill, I'd like to ask a question related to Vortex: There is this lifetime "No fault, no blame" warranty (or whatever it's called ....). Is this to be taken seriously? Obviously any bino will have an issue sooner or later so the company should be ruined after a few decades. It's not limited to the original owner either, so all Vortex can hope for is that people drop their binos in volcano's calderas or lose them on boating trips with sufficient water under the keel ....

You or anyone understands how this is supposed to work .... practically and financially?

Elu

This is kind of an old thread, but if there is one thing for which I'd never fault Vortex products, it'd be build quality. MY Z-R, on the other hand, had the outer part of the focusing knob fall completely off and also had the rubber armor start to peel from the body; Z-R of course rectified this.


Justin

La Mer said:

Very interesting observation. Disillusioning for some maybe but it doesn't really surprise if you know how today's industry works (usually, there may be exceptions).

As you seem to know your stuff, Bill, I'd like to ask a question related to Vortex: There is this lifetime "No fault, no blame" warranty (or whatever it's called ....). Is this to be taken seriously? Obviously any bino will have an issue sooner or later so the company should be ruined after a few decades. It's not limited to the original owner either, so all Vortex can hope for is that people drop their binos in volcano's calderas or lose them on boating trips with sufficient water under the keel ....

You or anyone understands how this is supposed to work .... practically and financially?

Elu

Click to expand...

The meaning of lifetime.
http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2013/07/lifetime-warranty.html

That says a lot

Pileatus said:

The meaning of lifetime.
http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2013/07/lifetime-warranty.html

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Very interesting, even amusing, Pileatus!

It also explains why no manufacturer (as far as I know) offers a lifetime warranty to customers in Europe (where I happen to live). Actually I once sent a mail to Vortex asking about the warranty here and I was told that "for legal reasons" the lifetime warranty could not be offered in Europe. I considered it a cheap excuse because they simply wanted to safe money on the less important customers overseas, but now I think that in Europe a lifetime warranty might be interpreted differently by the courts.

Nonetheless, I'd like to know from Vortex users how the company deals with warranty cases in actual practice.

Elu

Hello Elu.
i once had the small Vortex impact spotting scope. it fell off of my tripod. (i have since bought a new tripod and mount my scope differently). the mirror shattered. Vortex replaced it very quickly, no problems.
i currently have a Celestrn Regal fed scope. It took a bang once on the eyepiece and the focus was jammed. I contacted Celestron. No problems. Rather than fix the scope, they just sent me a brand new one.
i also have three Zen Ray ED binoculars. They get heavy use. The fit, finish and function on all three are impeccable, save a somewhat stiff focus on my 10 x 42. i hesitate to send them in, (the optics are perfect), so i cannot comment on their warranty service.

JakeM said:

Hello Elu.
i once had the small Vortex impact spotting scope. it fell off of my tripod. (i have since bought a new tripod and mount my scope differently). the mirror shattered. Vortex replaced it very quickly, no problems.
i currently have a Celestrn Regal fed scope. It took a bang once on the eyepiece and the focus was jammed. I contacted Celestron. No problems. Rather than fix the scope, they just sent me a brand new one.
i also have three Zen Ray ED binoculars. They get heavy use. The fit, finish and function on all three are impeccable, save a somewhat stiff focus on my 10 x 42. i hesitate to send them in, (the optics are perfect), so i cannot comment on their warranty service.

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Hello JakeM

very interesting information, thank you. I can only explain this with productions costs representing a rather small fraction of the final price, otherwise this would hardly be possible.

Elu

raptorbfl said:

Hi,

I have been wondering who has tighter control over their Chinese manufacturer
with the better quality control and overall build quality...Vortex or Zen-Ray?

From what I can gather, my guess is Vortex, as it seems Zen-Ray had and in some cases, continues to have build quality issues.

Click to expand...

Vortex.

raptorbfl said:

Hi,

I have been wondering who has tighter control over their Chinese manufacturer
with the better quality control and overall build quality...Vortex or Zen-Ray?

From what I can gather, my guess is Vortex, as it seems Zen-Ray had and in some cases, continues to have build quality issues.

Click to expand...

Vortex has many models, Zen Ray, a few. So there's bound to be more sample variation in Vortex, and they have better built models and lesser built models. With the Prime ED, ZR is also trying to become a two-tier company. If you spend $600 on a bin rather than $200 or $300, you expect better quality, but whether or not you get it remains to be seen. I'll let you know after I win the give-away contest!

I had two 7x36 ED2s, the first had a "sticky" focuser, that is, there were spots in the rotation where the focuser was harder to turn,and it also had the "veiling glare" probelm. ZR replaced it with a second sample. That sample had a smoother focuser but the diopter eventually discombobulated, and I couldn't focus the right barrel, but the glare problem was much improved.

Only tried one Vortex, the 8x42 Fury. I liked it despite it being a closed bridge roof, which are usually hard for me to handle, but the barrels were so fat that there was enough "real estate" to grab. I still don't know why they discontinued this model. It had good optics for an affordable price. From what I've read, Vortex, like ZR, is good when it comes to repairs, although in ZR's case, they send you a new unit. From the above tale of a scope drop, apparently Vortex does the same thing.

It seems with Chinese-made bins, quality control can still be an issue. Once they have that licked, I think they will be in a position to compete head-to-head with Japanese optics (which these days, probably contain parts made in China and/or the Pacific Rim).

I wonder what happens to those defective or broken Chinese-made bins and scopes? Do they get repaired, kept or parts, or get dumped?

The question with the "Lifetime Warranty" is will either company be around as long as you live? With Swaro, Zeiss, Nikon and Leica, you pay through the proboscis for their bins, but the companies have a long history, so I'm more confident they will be around.

Before when Vortex and ZR were making cheaper bins, this wasn't an issue, because if they disappeared tomorrow, well, you're out $200 or $300 if your bins break and can't be replaced (more of an issue with pricier scopes), but now that ZR is getting into the mid-priced range with the Prime ED and Vortex is getting into the second-tier range with its $1,200 Vortex Razor HD, you want those companies to be around to honor their warranty.

I also wonder as the price climbs on ChinBins will companies that sell them be able to maintain that lifetime warranty? Easy to replace a $200-$300 bin with a new sample, but not as easy with a $1,2000 bin.

The thing about "Lifetime Warranties" for all companies is that you may well outlive your bins if you're not an old fart. By the time your bin fails. the company may no longer stock parts for it, because they discontinued that model (like the 8x42 Fury), and you will end up getting the closest thing to it, which may or may not suit you. Then again, it could be better than what you had.

So "lifetime" really applies to the life the model, not you. Even Swaro is only stocking parts for 10 years now, so really old Swaros that they used to fix may be replaced with newer models.

Brock

raptorbfl said:

I have been wondering who has tighter control over their Chinese manufacturer with the better quality control and overall build quality...Vortex or Zen-Ray?

Click to expand...

Note that the higher-end Vortex binoculars are Made in Japan.

The Viper HD are quite good but the Razor HD quality is excellent. (The glass on the Razor HD could be a bit better for the money but the overall quality is really, really good.)

Dumped

brocknroller said:

I wonder what happens to those defective or broken Chinese-made bins and scopes? Do they get repaired, kept or parts, or get dumped?
Brock

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I think I can tell you what happens with these bins and scopes and parts, as long as we talk about the cheaper models: I'm quite sure they will all be thrown away, because it would just be too costly to send them back to the production plants, take them apart, examine the individual components, clean them etc. etc.

I have no experience in the optics business, but (alas!) I do have it in the (electrical) home appliance business, and I suppose things work here and there more or less in the same way, when it comes to warranties: Either the costumer's model is being repaired (which means he has to wait), or it is replaced immediately, and in my experience this always means that the defective product will be dumped. The production costs of a single component is generally so low nowadays (in China anyway), that this is the most economic solution, though certainly bad from an environmental and resource point of view. The production of a TV tuner module, for instance, costs about 3 to 4 Euros, so there is little point in reusing it.

The strategy of exchanging immediately (and then dumping the defective device) seems to be getting ever worse, also because it's very handy for both the dealer and the consumer. Say you buy a Philips baby monitor with video, which can cost up to 200 Euros, and after a year it doesn't work anymore. You bring it to your dealer, he checks it and finds out that it's only the net adapter of the parent unit that is defective; of course this could be replaced easily, and at very low cost. However, in reality the whole set (parent unit, baby unit, 2 net adapters) will be thrown away (not sent to Philips or anywhere else) and the customer immediately gets a brand new set.

The price limit for this kind of exchange varies between brands and the type of product, from about 40 to 200 Euros.

A pity, but that's the way it is.

However, I could imagine that highest quality optical components are being reused, especially as they do not age - which is different with electronic components.

Elu

La Mer said:

I think I can tell you what happens with these bins and scopes and parts, as long as we talk about the cheaper models: I'm quite sure they will all be thrown away, because it would just be too costly to send them back to the production plants, take them apart, examine the individual components, clean them etc. etc.

I have no experience in the optics business, but (alas!) I do have it in the (electrical) home appliance business, and I suppose things work here and there more or less in the same way, when it comes to warranties: Either the costumer's model is being repaired (which means he has to wait), or it is replaced immediately, and in my experience this always means that the defective product will be dumped. The production costs of a single component is generally so low nowadays (in China anyway), that this is the most economic solution, though certainly bad from an environmental and resource point of view. The production of a TV tuner module, for instance, costs about 3 to 4 Euros, so there is little point in reusing it.

The strategy of exchanging immediately (and then dumping the defective device) seems to be getting ever worse, also because it's very handy for both the dealer and the consumer. Say you buy a Philips baby monitor with video, which can cost up to 200 Euros, and after a year it doesn't work anymore. You bring it to your dealer, he checks it and finds out that it's only the net adapter of the parent unit that is defective; of course this could be replaced easily, and at very low cost. However, in reality the whole set (parent unit, baby unit, 2 net adapters) will be thrown away (not sent to Philips or anywhere else) and the customer immediately gets a brand new set.

The price limit for this kind of exchange varies between brands and the type of product, from about 40 to 200 Euros.

A pity, but that's the way it is.

However, I could imagine that highest quality optical components are being reused, especially as they do not age - which is different with electronic components.

Elu

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Perhaps not on topic, but I did wander about a batch of Nikon M7 8x30 refurbished units on the bay. A good buy, or could they include some of the unpainted internals, being recycled?
Dave

Repairing, reusing ....

Cluster said:

Perhaps not on topic, but I did wander about a batch of Nikon M7 8x30 refurbished units on the bay. A good buy, or could they include some of the unpainted internals, being recycled?
Dave

Click to expand...

Hello Dave

The M7, though made in China, is not so very cheap (in Europe it costs between 420 and more than 600 Euros, though I think it can be much cheaper in the US), so repair or recycling of components might already be worthwhile here. However, from your post it is not clear to me who refurbished and sold those binos again. Also, whether they had been defective in the first place, or just used.

Of course it can be economically reasonable to reuse parts on a small scale (and it would be very reasonable to do it on a global scale, for the sake of resources and environment), but in industrial mass production I think this is very difficult, because the thoroughly planned production process (having all the necessary components available when they are needed, not before and not after) would be completely upset by individual components coming in unpredictably, and then there is all the cleaning and testing and grading and storing and transporting .....

Things are different if the production is on a small scale and the components are very expensive. What I wouldn't expect (from my own professional experience) is that a renowned company repairs a product and then sells it again as "new". For two reasons: First, some (ex-)employee will talk about it some day, and it's not going to help the company's image. Second, you never know how the unit as a whole was treated, and even if you repair it, it may come in for a warranty repair sooner that the company likes - which is uneconomic.

But maybe someone here has got experience in the optics business and knows more about it?

Elu

La Mer said:

Very interesting observation. Disillusioning for some maybe but it doesn't really surprise if you know how today's industry works (usually, there may be exceptions).

As you seem to know your stuff, Bill, I'd like to ask a question related to Vortex: There is this lifetime "No fault, no blame" warranty (or whatever it's called ....). Is this to be taken seriously? Obviously any bino will have an issue sooner or later so the company should be ruined after a few decades. It's not limited to the original owner either, so all Vortex can hope for is that people drop their binos in volcano's calderas or lose them on boating trips with sufficient water under the keel ....

You or anyone understands how this is supposed to work .... practically and financially?

Elu

Click to expand...

Elu: I JUST saw your query. I hope the following from my ethereal book will help.

24 “I GOT A ‘NO FAULT WARRANTY’ WITH MY BINOCULAR, SO I NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING.”

The Fallacy: A “no fault warranty” assures you, you’re getting a good product.

The Fact: “No fault” warranties come on binoculars of all qualities.

No Fault Warranties have become popular in recent years and people are buying increasingly from companies offering them. Even so, I have a different understanding of the phrase, “No Fault Warranty,” than most consumers. It goes:

“We’re making so much money off these little suckers, we can afford to hand out two or three replacements, and still turn a profit. Besides, we know most people won’t recognize a problem or contact us at all. That means we can layoff our in-house repair techs, give you a brand new instrument, and make you think you made out like a bandit, even though the second or third unit might not be any better than the first.”

Are all “No Fault Warranties” like this? No! No! No! But, “Buyer Beware” is a phrase of ever-expanding importance.

A STORY

As an optics merchant, it would be foolish to turn away sales of a popular binocular. Yet, that is exactly what I once had to do.

A particular instrument kept arriving from a prominent importer out of collimation—right out of the box. Therefore, the next time I received a shipment, I set aside time to check each one before putting it away. When the first eight were out of collimation—by even the most lenient of industry standards—I decided not to waste any more time on the project, and sent the entire shipment of 20 back to the importer.

I could have collimated them. However, that could have caused other problems. First, it would have been a waste of time and money for my company. Then, too, how could I know the instruments would hold their collimation and not soon cause problems for my customers? Knowing it would cost more in handling and shipping to return individual instruments to the importer, than it would to simply return the lot and remove the model from inventory, I felt that was the best option. Popular or not, that model was a waste of money.

Then, when I saw the binocular being treated as the neatest thing since sliced bread on a certain Internet binocular forum, I felt I was obliged to make other participants aware of my findings. I was quickly reminded that no good deed will go unpunished and that you can’t save some people from themselves.

WJC said:

.....
When the first eight were out of collimation—by even the most lenient of industry standards—I decided not to waste any more time on the project, and sent the entire shipment of 20 back to the importer.
.......
Then, when I saw the binocular being treated as the neatest thing since sliced bread on a certain Internet binocular forum, I felt I was obliged to make other participants aware of my findings. I was quickly reminded that no good deed will go unpunished and that you can’t save some people from themselves.

Click to expand...

Bill

thanks a lot for the clarification. Makes sense, absolutely.

I especially enjoyed the last sentence (quoted) - there are believers in any field of existence. If I may say something from experience too: Don't try to save them; they are saved already by virtue of their belief and by powers that are far beyond the likes of you or me.

Elu

La Mer said:

Bill

thanks a lot for the clarification. Makes sense, absolutely.

I especially enjoyed the last sentence (quoted) - there are believers in any field of existence. If I may say something from experience too: Don't try to save them; they are saved already by virtue of their belief and by powers that are far beyond the likes of you or me.

Elu

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You're kind.

I really shouldn't be on these lists; it's bad for my heart. But, if I can help that magic 2% . . .

You have probably noticed how I am sometimes taken to task here. I don't need that . . . I have KIDS to do that for me.

My biggest effort lies in the THIS VS. THAT arena.

What FACET of THIS are you trying to compare to THAT? One size does not fit all. As far back as scripture, we learn "milk before meat." That is a concept teachers have been trying to drive home since before the days of Socrates. How can you understand calculus, if you don't understand the value of numerals? Yet, folks are still scratching for data they can't understand. Reading a few simple books could solve all that. But, we MUST have the data . . . NOW!

Disregarding the cottage industries in Japan and China, that might make ONE element for several companies, there are FEW plants in Asia producing the myriad products on the market. It is not uncommon for one binocular to come into the country wearing several differences in cosmetics, name, and price. How SHOULD model "A" compare to model "B," when, often, they're really the same inside?

Bill |=\|

I've re-read the warranty cards from both Vortex and Zenray, and neither really goes to any pains to define whose "lifetime" they're referring to. Is it the user's lifetime or the company's lifetime? I certainly hope they're not talking about the product's lifetime because binoculars are inanimate objects!