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Ploceidae

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Old Friday 26th February 2010, 11:00   #1
Peter Kovalik
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Ploceidae

Prager, M. 2010.
Phylogeny and Signal Diversity in Widowbirds and Bishops (Euplectes spp.)
abstract:
http://gupea.ub.gu.se/dspace/bitstre...77_21697_1.pdf

http://hdl.handle.net/2077/21697
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Old Friday 26th February 2010, 11:56   #2
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Prager, M. 2010.
Phylogeny and Signal Diversity in Widowbirds and Bishops (Euplectes spp.)
Not very different from this article
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Old Wednesday 14th September 2011, 13:51   #3
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Euplectes

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Prager, M. 2010.
Phylogeny and Signal Diversity in Widowbirds and Bishops (Euplectes spp.)
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Old Wednesday 29th February 2012, 10:17   #4
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Not very different from this article
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Old Saturday 30th April 2016, 05:40   #5
Peter Kovalik
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Ploceus

TiF Update April 29, 2016

Weavers: Based on Päckert et al., I've rearranged the Ploceidae and split Ploceus into two genera: Ploceus for the Asian species and Textor for the African species.
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Old Saturday 30th April 2016, 07:57   #6
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There's really no Phylogenetics studies of genus Ploceus, except Groth 1998 ?
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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 09:17   #7
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The main problem here remains the data of Warren et al. 2012 [pdf]. Under the assumption that "there's an Asian clade (true Ploceus) and an African clade (Textor)", you must correct the rooting of the tree shown on Fig.2 of this paper to make the "African clade", a clade--that will be sister to the Euplectes/Quelea/true Ploceus/Foudia group. This makes the topology of this "African clade":
[Ploceus sakasava, (Ploceus "cucullata", [Ploceus bicolor, Malimbus nitens])]
Re. support: in the re-oriented part of the tree, the values that appeared next to a node in the original, apply to the node at the opposite end of the branch that lead to it. In other words, P. bicolor is sister to M. nitens with support 96/100; these are sister to P. "cuculata" with support 95/100; and this group is sister to P. sakasava with support 100/100. (All of which are very high.)
There are no published genetic data for M. malimbicus (the type species of Malimbus), but the BOLD database has a private sequence that places it sister to M. nitens in ID trees--hence I see no reason to doubt that the position of M. nitens represents the correct position of the name.
Of course, Malimbus Vieillot 1805 has precendence over Textor Temminck 1825.

If the Warren et al topology is correct, neither bicolor nor sakasava can be in Textor.

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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 10:31   #8
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The better solution, for me : split Ploceus into several genera (Saka, Icteropsis, Orthyphantes, Sitagra etc...).
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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 12:24   #9
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... and Textor for the African species.
Presumably named from their proficiency in mobile phone usage?

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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 12:36   #10
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Presumably named from their proficiency in mobile phone usage?

And their special ability to weave expertly through oncoming obstacles while doing so
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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 12:49   #11
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The better solution, for me : split Ploceus into several genera (Saka, Icteropsis, Orthyphantes, Sitagra etc...).
Nomenclatorist, how would you arrange the Ploceus species under these genera?
Would this arrangement be intuitive or based on observed differences?

Edit: Ok, I've just been reading the family intro in HBW15. Wolters suggested major subdivisions based on a cladistics approach using shared derived characters as the informative elements.
Craig & Barker used 60 morphological and behavioural characteristics to suggest that Ploceus may not be monophyletic. Results weren't robust enough to propose new generic divisions but points to note included Malimbus being inseparable from Ploceus (sensu lato), and Madagascan and Asian Ploceus falling in different clades.
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Last edited by Acanthis : Sunday 1st May 2016 at 13:22.
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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 13:50   #12
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Originally Posted by Acanthis View Post
Craig & Barker used 60 morphological and behavioural characteristics to suggest that Ploceus may not be monophyletic. Results weren't robust enough to propose new generic divisions but points to note included Malimbus being inseparable from Ploceus (sensu lato), and Madagascan and Asian Ploceus falling in different clades.
Reference pleeeeeeeaaaase ?
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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 14:01   #13
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Wolters 1970 is [here]. The classification was based on morphology and ethology; although he wrote that he had been "always trying to [...] discriminate between synapomorphic and symplesiomorphic forms in the sense of Hennig (1950, 1957)", I am unclear that any actual cladistic analysis was done. His classification was as follows:
Pachyphantes superciliosus
Ploceella (Ploceella) hypoxantha
Ploceella (Deignaniplectes) megarhyncha
Ploceus manyar
Ploceus bengalensis
Ploceus philippinus
Nelicurvius (Saka) sakalava
Nelicurvius (Nelicurvius) nelicourvi
Sitagra (Sitagra) subpersonata
Sitagra (Sitagra) pelzelni
Sitagra (Sitagra) luteola
Sitagra (Hypositagra) intermedia
Hyphanturgus melanogaster
Hyphanturgus nigricollis
Hyphanturgus ocularis
Sitagroides alienus
Symplectes olivaceiceps
Symplectes nicolli
Symplectes bicolor
Rhinoploceus flavipes
Phormoplectes (Melanoploceus) fuscocastaneus
Phormoplectes (subgen. indet.) aureonucha
Phormoplectes (Phormoplectes) insignis
Phormoplectes (Phormoplectes) dorsomaculatus
Phormoplectes (Phormoplectes) preussi
Notiospiza angolensis
Thomasophantes sanctithomae
Anaplectes rubriceps (incl. leuconotus)
Malimbus erythrogaster
Malimbus malimbicus
Malimbus nitens
Malimbus coronatus
Malimbus racheliae
Malimbus cassini (incl. ibadanensis)
Malimbus scutatus
Malimbus rubricollis
Otyphantes (Otyphantes) baglafecht (incl. reichenowi, stuhlmanni, emini, etc.)
Otyphantes (Xanthoploceus) bertrandi
Otyphantes (Xanthoploceus) nigrimentum
Otyphantes (Xanthoploceus) bannermani
Otyphantes (Xanthoploceus) batesi
Textor (Deleplectes) aurantius
Textor (Oriolinops) xanthops
Textor (Euploceus) capensis
Textor (Euploceus) temporalis
Textor (Xanthophilus) subaureus
Textor (Xanthoplectes) bojeri
Textor (Xanthoplectes) castaneiceps
Textor (Xanthoplectes) xanthopterus
Textor (Microploceus) castanops
Textor (Microploceus) taeniopterus
Textor (Microploceus) reichardi
Textor (Microploceus) velatus
Textor (Microploceus) atrogularis
Textor (Microploceus) vitellinus
Textor (Microploceus) galbula
Textor (Hyphanthornis) dicrocephalus
Textor (Hyphanthornis) badius
Textor (Hyphanthornis) jacksoni
Textor (Hyphanthornis) melanocephalus (incl. capitalis, dimidiatus)
Textor (Hyphanthornis) grandis
Textor (Textor) cucullatus (incl. nigriceps, spilonotus)
Textor (Textor) spekei (probably incl. spekeoides)
Textor (Eremiplectes) rubriginosus (incl. trothae)
Textor (Dendrhyphantes) weynsi
Textor (Dendrhyphantes) golandi
Textor (Melanopteryx) nigerrimus (incl. castaneofuscus)
?Textor (Melanopteryx) albinucha (incl. maxwelli, holomelas; may belong elsewhere)
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Reference pleeeeeeeaaaase ?
Seconded...
(Hint: there is no "Craig & Barker" publication in the list of references at the end of HBW15.)

Last edited by l_raty : Sunday 1st May 2016 at 16:24.
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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 14:05   #14
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Wasn't made clear which Wolters reference was used but I presume "Wolters, H. E., 1954: Uber die Gattungen der Ploceinae. Annales du Musee du Congo Belge NS 4 to Zool, 1: 107-113"

I'll get back to you on the other. I have to go do something right now.
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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 14:09   #15
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Laurent, I already use this conception in my notebook.

"On the generic classification of the weaver birds of the Malimbus-Ploceus group " by Wolters. I know this work.

Last edited by LeNomenclatoriste : Sunday 1st May 2016 at 14:45.
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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 15:53   #16
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Oh niiice!! Thanks Laurent
I'll print myself a copy.

As you point out no "Craig & Barker". The correct references are in the chapter's bibliography and if you can be arsed cross referencing with list at the back I'm sure very illuminating.
A bit vague in the actual meat of the chapter!
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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 16:15   #17
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Wow! Great Wolters paper!
It's very puzzling why he seems to have been largely ignored in Anglophone ornithological spheres.

Can you suggest any more of his work worth reading, preferably in English if possible as there's always something lost in translation
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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 16:43   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acanthis View Post
Wow! Great Wolters paper!
It's very puzzling why he seems to have been largely ignored in Anglophone ornithological spheres.

Can you suggest any more of his work worth reading, preferably in English if possible as there's always something lost in translation
This: On the generic classification of the weaver birds of the Malimbus-Ploceus group by Wolters
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Old Sunday 1st May 2016, 20:57   #19
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Wolters, H. E., 1954: Uber die Gattungen der Ploceinae. Annales du Musee du Congo Belge NS 4 to Zool, 1: 107-113"
Quote:
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It's very puzzling why [Wolters] seems to have been largely ignored in Anglophone ornithological spheres.
Probably very hard to access copies of Congolese journals in 1950s / 1960s UK / N America . . . no internet, not even photocopiers.
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Old Monday 2nd May 2016, 07:40   #20
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TiF

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Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
The main problem here remains the data of Warren et al. 2012 [pdf]...
John Boyd (TiF):
www.jboyd.net/Taxo/changes.html (1 May 2016)
www.jboyd.net/Taxo/List28.html#ploceidae
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Old Monday 2nd May 2016, 07:57   #21
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Probably very hard to access copies of Congolese journals in 1950s / 1960s UK / N America . . . no internet, not even photocopiers.
It's Belgian, actually. The former Musée du Congo Belge, now Musée Royal d'Afrique Centrale / Koninklijk Museum voor Midden-Afrika, is located at Tervuren, Flemish-Brabant, Belgium -- http://www.africamuseum.be/

But anyway, the paper that was puzzlingly "largely ignored" was the later one: Wolters HE. 1970. On the generic classification of the weaver birds of the Malimbus-Ploceus group. Nat. Hist. Bull. (Siam Soc.) 23:369-391. (Pdf link in my earlier post above.)
I also still think this is most likely the paper that Craig 2010 (HBW15) meant to refer to. ("H.E. Wolters is the only recent author who has suggested a major subdivision into different genera." Wolters 1970 only referred to Wolters 1954 as having proposed a merging of Ploceus and Malimbus [something he had actually already suggested two years earlier]; the opposite, thus.)

Re. "Craig & Barker": the exact wording in HBW15 is : "A cladistic analysis of this genus and other members of the weaver family by A.J.F.K. Craig and N. Barker, using 60 morphological and behavioural characters, supports the view that the genus Ploceus as currently constituted is not monophyletic, but the provisional results of this analysis are not robust, and must await data before new generic divisions can be suggested with confidence."
Given that Adrian J.F.K. Craig is the author of this family account, that "supports" is a present rather than past tense, and that the results are said to be provisional, I suspect that this was merely a report about his own unpublished work-in-progress.
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Old Monday 2nd May 2016, 08:28   #22
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Geneticists, at work !!!
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Old Monday 2nd May 2016, 10:33   #23
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Quote:
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Re. dating:

If Warren et al's tree is misrooted (which it clearly is IMO), and if they used this tree to date the divergence events, you can't expect their dates to be correct.

As can be seen, the "basal" branches in their tree (the ones leading to the outgroup taxa) become shorter and shorter as you go up -- this is not real, just a consequence of the internodal divergences in this part of the tree being counted in the wrong direction. A dating algorithm will of course force all of the terminals to end up synchronous (all the samples are present specimens). To make, i.a., Malimbus and Ploceus bicolor present taxa, the algorithm will have to stretch (= assume a rate of change lower than real) the branches that lead to them, and shrink (= assume a rate of change higher than real) the internodes that are between node [6] (date fixed by the authors as 0.5 MYA) and what is accepted as the root of the tree. As a result, the nodes that are between node [6] and the real root of the tree should be expected to have their age underestimated.
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Old Monday 2nd May 2016, 12:48   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l_raty View Post
But anyway, the paper that was puzzlingly "largely ignored" was the later one: Wolters HE. 1970. On the generic classification of the weaver birds of the Malimbus-Ploceus group. Nat. Hist. Bull. (Siam Soc.) 23:369-391.

Correct. The "largely ignored" phrase was perhaps partially quoted from elsewhere I believe. I meant his work in general though not just this paper, something I've felt since discovering his work on Serinus some years ago.


Quote:
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Re. "Craig & Barker": the exact wording in HBW15 is : "A cladistic analysis of this genus and other members of the weaver family by A.J.F.K. Craig and N. Barker, using 60 morphological and behavioural characters, supports the view that the genus Ploceus as currently constituted is not monophyletic, but the provisional results of this analysis are not robust, and must await data before new generic divisions can be suggested with confidence."
Given that Adrian J.F.K. Craig is the author of this family account, that "supports" is a present rather than past tense, and that the results are said to be provisional, I suspect that this was merely a report about his own unpublished work-in-progress.
Nicely deduced. At least someone appears to be working on this group.
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Old Thursday 22nd December 2016, 11:12   #25
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De Silva, T.N., Townsend Peterson, A., Fernando, S.W., Bates, J.M., Marks, B.D., Girard, M., Phylogenetic relationships of weaverbirds (Aves: Ploceidae): A first robust phylogeny based on mitochondrial and nuclear markers, Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution (2016), doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ympev. 2016.12.013 In Press, Accepted Manuscript, Available online 21 December 2016.

[abstract]

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