Pontic Gulls ?? (1 Viewer)

Once, in the good (?) old times, I identified a larger gull as my first Herring Gull / Larus argentatus. Later I also saw a few examples of the variant with the yellow legs. Then science gave the yellow-legged variant full species status as the Yellow-legged Gull / Larus cachinnans (armchair-tick!). Nowadays the Yellow-legged Gull has also been split (although the UK is not yet so far?), resulting in the Yellow-legged Gull / Larus michahellis and the Pontic Gull / Larus cachinnans. Life is not made easier for a non-full time birdwatcher (reminds me of Scottish Crossbills ).

As I had heard that "professional" birdwatchers regularly see Pontic Gulls in my local area, and as it's always cool to add another lifer, I decided to have a better look at any Herring Gull look-a-likes whenever I would see one. So I scoped through a large group of gulls (Feb.27, Eijsderbeemden near Maastricht, Netherlands), and found that most of them were Black-headed Gulls mixed with some Mew Gulls. However, there were also three large ones in the water. I couldn't see the colour of the legs, but the Mullarney book said that the Pontic Gull has a longer bill without a pronounced gonys, and that the red spot on the lower mandible would also show some black. Pointing the scope again on one of the distant birds (see first photo), I concluded that it did fit the description.

Continuing my walk I found another two at closer range, one is at photo 2, the other is at photos 3, 4 and 5. At home I could study the wingtips at leisure, and the pronounced grey tongues into the black convinced me even more. But as this is such a complicated matter (living off-coast I was glad I could separate a Herring Gull from a Lesser Black-backed ) I would like to invite the opinion of the experts. I don't know yet if I will ever try to ID immatures!

Thanks for looking into this,
Peter

All the features are there Fulmar. The head shape, the bill, the mantle colour, the leg colour and the wing tip pattern all scream Pontic Gull to me ( we call them Caspian Gulls in Britain)

Darrell

Hi Fulmar,
I don't think that the first bird is a Pontic/Caspian Gull:the pattern on the underside of P10 on the far wing seems wrong for that.Could be a Herring Gull?
Bird 2 is harder to judge based on a single photograph,but it does show some features that suggest that it may indeed be cachinnans.
Bird 3,in my opinion,is a 'classic' Caspian.The spread wing is most illuminating:full white tip to the outer primary(P10),grey 'tongues' eating into the black and a complete black band on P5(sixth primary from the outside).The darkish iris,pattern to the underside of P10 on the folded wing,structure etc all point to Caspian.
BTW,the subspecies(or species) is only described in the Collins!Had you seen pics anywhere?Fair play to you if you hadn't!
Harry

These aren't all of the same bird are they?

...I've just read Harry's post...

Hi Darrell/Harry,

The Pontic Gull is recognised as a full species on the official Dutch species list. They use the English name Pontic Gull rather than Caspian Gull, and as I thought that they would be discussing these things with other official nomenclature bodies I thought that Pontic Gull was the internationally accepted name. :h?:

The CSNA is the committee (of the Dutch Birding Association/DBA and the Netherlands Ornithological Union/NOU) on taxonomy, nomenclature and status of Dutch (sub)species. They decided in 1998 to separate the Pontic Gull and a summary of this decision is listed at the DBA's website as follows:

<quote>
Larus cachinnans (Pontic Gull / Pontische Meeuw)
Larus michahellis (Yellow-legged Gull / Geelpootmeeuw)
Pontic Gull and Yellow-legged Gull are specifically distinct (cf Klein & Buchheim 1997, Klein & Gruber 1997), based on qualitative differences in morphology and vocalizations, and differences in behaviour and ecology (Klein 1994, Gruber 1995, Jonsson 1996, 1998, Garner 1997, Garner & Quinn 1997, Garner et al 1997, Klein & Buchheim 1997, Klein & Gruber 1997, Larsson & Lorentzon 1998). Pontic Gull and Yellow-legged Gull breed in close proximity along the Black Sea coast of Rumania, apparently without interbreeding (Klein & Buchheim 1997). Pending further analysis, atlantis is provisionally retained as conspecific with michahellis; barabensis and mongolicus are provisionally retained as conspecific with cachinnans.
Armenian Gull L armenicus is specifically distinct from Pontic Gull, Yellow-legged Gull and Heuglin´s Gull L heuglini based on qualitative differences in morphology and vocalizations (Géroudet 1982, Hume 1983, Dubois 1985, Grant 1986, 1987, Satat & Laird 1992, Buzun 1993, Filchagov 1993, Frede & Langbehn 1997).
<end quote>

Harry, I had indeed found several pictures on the internet, and also the Dutch version of the Mullarney guide (which I used in the field) gives a full determination description. But my most comprehensive source was the Flemish magazine Natuur.oriolus (Jul/Aug/Sep.2002 issue), which gives a full study of the recognition features of the Pontic and the Yellow-legged Gull. However, even after having studied that, I still found it very difficult to be sure about "my" gulls! Not enough practice I guess.

Ref the bird on photo 1, I mainly concluded that it was a Pontic because of the red and BLACK spot on the lower mandible, which according to Mullarney is a feature of the Pontic. On the (distant) picture it is maybe not so clear, but it was quite eyecatching through the telescope (being just back from California it immediately reminded me of California Gull!).

Tom, the pictures are of 3 different birds, see my original posting.

Thanks for your contributions,
Peter