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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Is 8x32 or 8x42 the best Birding format? (1 Viewer)

"8x32 or 8x42 ?" is two questions not one

Long debated is the topic of what format 8x32 or 8x42 is the best for birding. With the new Zeiss 8x42 SF's only being available in 8x42 I have been asking myself if I could ever go back to an 8x42. I REALLY appreciate the size and weight of the 8x32 and I don't think the light grasp advantage of the 8x42 is really that important for mostly daylight birding. I think the Exit Aperture of the 8x32 at 4mm is really comfortable and is optimum and I don't feel the bigger Exit Aperture of the 8x42 at 5mm is really that beneficial. Overall I feel the 8x32 is a better birding binocular. What do you think? Do you prefer an 8x32 or an 8x42 for birding? Your opinion could cost me $2500 if I decide I want the Zeiss SF so be careful!

Let's have a vote. Vote for the 8x32 or 8x42 for your favorite birding format.

Hello Dennis,

I would like to make the case that the vote you suggest is too simple ... that your original post in fact asks TWO questions, not one:

  1. If you could have only one pair of glasses for birding, would you choose 8x32 or 8x42?
  2. If you had two pairs of birding glasses, of similar quality, one pair 8x32, one pair 8x42, which would you use more often?

Back in 2002, when the Pussycat and I had enough money to buy one pair of alphas, we answered your first question by buying 8.5x42s. We live little more than 10 minutes drive from the New Forest, and the brighter view at dusk in woodland seemed more important than the ease with which 8x32s can be carried long distances.

Others will argue -- as you did in the OP -- that the undeniable benefits of the 8x32s in size and weight are the more important factor.

Still others will argue that 7x or 10x are better magnifications. 40 years ago, when I was in my 20s, my perception was that 10x40s allowed you to see more detail, even allowing for the greater shake. Now, in my 40s, I can see the value of low-shake 7x glasses.

Still others will argue that we should have split the money in two, and bought midrange 8x32s AND 8x42s, rather than one pair of alphas.

We cannot answer your second question. Our Swarovskis are so much better than either our budget Canon 8x32s or our standard-grade Nikon 10x50s that they are ALWAYS the glasses that are picked up first.

I suspect that those who have similar-grade 8x32s and 8x42s take the former when they have to walk a long way and the latter at dawn and dusk ... and that they will answer your second question according to which they pick up first in good light for birding near the car (and which they pick up with less reluctance when they have to walk a long way at dusk).

Later,

Dr Owl

----------------------------------
John Owlett, Southampton, UK
 
Long debated is the topic of what format 8x32 or 8x42 is the best for birding. With the new Zeiss 8x42 SF's only being available in 8x42 I have been asking myself if I could ever go back to an 8x42. I REALLY appreciate the size and weight of the 8x32 and I don't think the light grasp advantage of the 8x42 is really that important for mostly daylight birding. I think the Exit Aperture of the 8x32 at 4mm is really comfortable and is optimum and I don't feel the bigger Exit Aperture of the 8x42 at 5mm is really that beneficial. Overall I feel the 8x32 is a better birding binocular. What do you think? Do you prefer an 8x32 or an 8x42 for birding? Your opinion could cost me $2500 if I decide I want the Zeiss SF so be careful!

Hello again Dennis,

A second, different, observation based on your original post.

Is it reasonable to infer from Zeiss's website and its recent product-range actions, that it sees the Victory HTs as its premium hunters' glasses and the Victory SFs as its premium birding glasses ? ... though of course any customer is welcome to use any of its glasses in any way he or she chooses.

If so, the way that the 42mm Victory FLs were withdrawn and the Victory SFs were introduced causes me to suspect that Zeiss hopes to launch 8x32 and 10x32 versions of the SFs as soon as they are ready ... withdrawing the FLs entirely some time thereafter to simplify the range.

If that happens, and if you can wait until that happens -- and if you prefer SFs to ELs -- then instead of a $2500 cost, you will have the lesser cost of swapping 8x32s.

Later,

Dr Owl

----------------------------------
John Owlett, Southampton, UK
 
I have noticed differences in the twilight views of 6x32 and 8x42 with the 8x42 being superior.

Hello Dennis,

That is to be expected because of both the higher magnification and the larger aperture. Quite in line with the computation of twilight factor. The former has a twilight factor of less than 14 and the latter of more than 18, quite noticeable because the figures reflect the square roots of the two factors. The difference is not linear its logarithmic.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:
 
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Let's have a vote. Vote for the 8x32 or 8x42 for your favorite birding format.

Hello Dennis,

Some, including me, do not care to prescriptive on a matter which involves any number of considerations, including age, physical health, and style of bird watching. I can write, with absolute certainty, that I generally use a 6.5x32, while packing a 10x32.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur
 
Hello again Dennis,

A second, different, observation based on your original post.

Is it reasonable to infer from Zeiss's website and its recent product-range actions, that it sees the Victory HTs as its premium hunters' glasses and the Victory SFs as its premium birding glasses ? ... though of course any customer is welcome to use any of its glasses in any way he or she chooses.

If so, the way that the 42mm Victory FLs were withdrawn and the Victory SFs were introduced causes me to suspect that Zeiss hopes to launch 8x32 and 10x32 versions of the SFs as soon as they are ready ... withdrawing the FLs entirely some time thereafter to simplify the range.

If that happens, and if you can wait until that happens -- and if you prefer SFs to ELs -- then instead of a $2500 cost, you will have the lesser cost of swapping 8x32s.

Later,

Dr Owl

----------------------------------
John Owlett, Southampton, UK


There isn't much that needs to be done to improve the 32mm Fls. They already have SP prisms. They could use a flatter field of view so do that. Then maybe a cosmetic overhaul to make them look more like the SF. After that let well enough alone. Small 32 mm binoculars don't need their weight rebalanced toward the back of the binocular or need to have their focus wheels repositioned.

Bob
 
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If you want proof about how odd the perception of brightness can be check this out:

http://web.mit.edu/persci/people/adelson/checkershadow_illusion.html

That's why I never comment on brightness. I just dunno.

Mark

Actually, now that I look closer at it, it looks like Adelson fudged it just a bit. Or is it just me?!? :-O

It also brings up something else for the binomaniacs to worry about that I have never seen addressed here, "binocular rivalry." And no, I don't mean this vs. that.

Bill
 
I'm not angry, but this isn't my area of expertise so I'm not familiar with the classic papers that deal with the relevant phenomena, which means it would take me a lot of time to track them down. I hope you won't consider me lazy. Perhaps someone more familiar with that literature will chime in. If I have time tonight, I'll look to see what of relevance is written in the section on the retina and vision in a current human physiology textbook (I own several).

I'm afraid most current papers will be addressing topics way beyond the general aspects of retinal and brain processing that you and I would be most interested in, but since it is easy to do searches on the web (on Google Scholar), here is one recent paper in a good journal that addresses several relevant aspects of photoreceptor responsiveness in the context of their more specific interest in noise. Many of the older papers they cite would likely be better for our needs but I don't have time to explore further.

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v16/n11/full/nn.3534.html

--AP

PS -- It occurs to me after posting this that the article might not be open access, so it might not display for you like it does for me. If so, send me a PM and I'll e-mail a PDF to you, if you like, for what it's worth.

Hi Alexis:

I read the second blurb you posted, too. It, likewise, didn’t address my question, but rather concerned itself with background optical “noise,” and not how the eye “accumulates,” the light needed to reinforce a useful, crisp image. You addressed my thoughts in such an authoritative way, I left myself open to learn.

My straightforward talk often gets me into trouble. Still, with you not having time to pursue the matter further, and our other heavy hitters having not piped up, I will hang on to my original belief a bit longer.

But, if anyone can direct me to an authoritative, peer reviewed, paper that addresses the precise topic in contention, I would be pleased to read it and thrilled to change my stance, if warranted.

Bill |=)|
 
Good to bring the conversation back onto the subject! :t:

Sorry I can't give a definite answer at this moment. I think 8x32 may be better for the most occasions because of lighter weight and smaller size. Many consider 8x42 to provide a better ease of view because the better eye relief and larger exit pupil, however. But if I think about the difference between my 6x32 and 8x42 I really can say that I more often bring with me the 32mm format out in the field. Still this is depending on the transport; with a car(and don't need to walk long distance to the observation place) it really doesn't matter. But if I walk or use the bicycle the smaller format is more attractive.
Isn't it funny how a LITTLE extra weight makes a difference?
 
Hello again Dennis,

A second, different, observation based on your original post.

Is it reasonable to infer from Zeiss's website and its recent product-range actions, that it sees the Victory HTs as its premium hunters' glasses and the Victory SFs as its premium birding glasses ? ... though of course any customer is welcome to use any of its glasses in any way he or she chooses.

If so, the way that the 42mm Victory FLs were withdrawn and the Victory SFs were introduced causes me to suspect that Zeiss hopes to launch 8x32 and 10x32 versions of the SFs as soon as they are ready ... withdrawing the FLs entirely some time thereafter to simplify the range.

If that happens, and if you can wait until that happens -- and if you prefer SFs to ELs -- then instead of a $2500 cost, you will have the lesser cost of swapping 8x32s.

Later,

Dr Owl

----------------------------------
John Owlett, Southampton, UK
Zeiss prices come down on the used market quite a bit. There is a Zeiss HT 10x42 new on Astromart now for $1500. Maybe I will just wait awhile.
 
There isn't much that needs to be done to improve the 32mm Fls. They already have SP prisms. They could use a flatter field of view so do that. Then maybe a cosmetic overhaul to make them look more like the SF. After that let well enough alone. Small 32 mm binoculars don't need their weight rebalanced toward the back of the binocular or need to have their focus wheels repositioned.

Bob
The only thing I didn't like about my Zeiss 8x32 FL's was the chunky ergonomics. I really prefer the slender tubes of the SV 8x32 but that is just personal preference. I think a Zeiss 8x32 SF would really have to be good to beat an FL.
 
...and not how the eye “accumulates,” the light needed to reinforce a useful, crisp image. ...

I admitted that the primary interest of the paper is noise, but I thought the simple existence of detection thresholds that vary according to ambient conditions (see Fig. 7 from the paper, attached) was relevant.

I'm not sure how you imagine photoreceptors and the brain to function. On your understanding, what is the explanation for why I can see a bullet hanging from a string five feet in front of me, but not one that flies by at supersonic speed five feet in front of me? Why can't you see the scrolling of movies and television? Why can't you see conventional florescent light bulbs flicker?

--AP
 

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I admitted that the primary interest of the paper is noise, but I thought the simple existence of detection thresholds that vary according to ambient conditions (see Fig. 7 from the paper, attached) was relevant.

I'm not sure how you imagine photoreceptors and the brain to function. On your understanding, what is the explanation for why I can see a bullet hanging from a string five feet in front of me, but not one that flies by at supersonic speed five feet in front of me? Why can't you see the scrolling of movies and television? Why can't you see conventional florescent light bulbs flicker?

--AP

Hi Alexis:

First, I must say the resolution of your attachment was too week for me to read—I’m sorry.

Secondly, I do not see where any of your assertions address my comments.

More importantly, as I do not want to be esteemed as your enemy, I think we should just agree to disagree, agreeably. Thus, I will be pleased to hold on to my perspective, as I gladly allow you to hold on to yours. To me, the idea of a bullet on a string versus the same type of bullet speeding by at the same distance, has no relation to the point you were trying to make; that being that the sensors in the eye store enough photons to add “brightness” to an image.

I will humbly close with asking you to read up on “binocular rivalry,” “thermal cells,” and to consider the following:

A bird is sitting on the lowest small limb within the field of a binocular. All of a sudden, as birds are prone to do, the bird hops up to the next higher limb. Of what value would any “accumulated” light from the preceding moment be to the viewer’s new scene?

Thus, please let us leave this discussion as friends. And, don’t for a moment think I am not familiar with being made a fool of; I raised 3 teens! |:x|

Cheers,

Bill
 
Every receptor,
everywhere, be it human eyes, fish eyes, eagle eyes,
an FM radio, Navy Sonar, the Hubble telescope, or a voltmeter,
---needs time to accumulate signal and detect it
---detects the difference above noise, not the signal itself

The movie flicker and fluorescent light examples, the hanging and flying bullet;
all these things make it flat obvious. Taking pictures with a digital camera with
to short an exposure make it obvious. Taking pictures with film makes it obvious.
Eyes shut...blinking open.

It is only extreme posed radical skepticism that makes someone deny all of it.
Attitude over common sense. Amazing. The contrvaersy is far more about Psychology
than optics or physiology. It is impossible to satisfy with evidence the opinion that is
not based on fair rules of evidence. This is how the defense of "argumentum ad ignorantiam"
works. Someone is 'baffled' by even flickering movies.



I have no question that 42mm gives a little clearer view and a little quicker response.
32mm is much smaller and more convenient, though. Everything counts, especially convenience.
We are not arguing for 20x80 handhelds, are we? If want fast+bright, I go 10x50. Otherwise
it's 8x32 or 7x35, accepting lower power to increase brightness and reduce shake.
 
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Every receptor,
everywhere, be it human eyes, fish eyes, eagle eyes,
an FM radio, Navy Sonar, the Hubble telescope, or a voltmeter,
---needs time to accumulate signal and detect it
---detects the difference above noise, not the signal itself

The movie flicker and fluorescent light examples, the hanging and flying bullet;
all these things make it flat obvious. Taking pictures with a digital camera with
to short an exposure make it obvious. Taking pictures with film makes it obvious.
Eyes shut...blinking open.

It is only extreme posed radical skepticism that makes someone deny all of it.
Attitude over common sense. Amazing. The contrvaersy is far more about Psychology
than optics or physiology. It is impossible to satisfy with evidence the opinion that is
not based on fair rules of evidence. This is how the defense of "argumentum ad ignorantiam"
works. Someone is 'baffled' by even flickering movies.



I have no question that 42mm gives a little clearer view and a little quicker response.
32mm is much smaller and more convenient, though. Everything counts, especially convenience.
We are not arguing for 20x80 handhelds, are we? If want fast+bright, I go 10x50. Otherwise
it's 8x32 or 7x35, accepting lower power to increase brightness and reduce shake.
What do you mean by a quicker response on the 42mm?
 
Isn't it funny how a LITTLE extra weight makes a difference?

Yes. 32mm model isn't close to half the size or weight as 42mm but still it makes such a difference. I am tempted to get an 8x32 but if I do I am sure I will still keep the 6x32. The lower magnification has it's use. For example when boating or when I just want a relaxed stable view and don't need high power.
 
What do you mean by a quicker response on the 42mm?

More photons from the target cause the image to update at a more rapid rate.
The effect (severe dusk/shade conditions) could be that it takes a few seconds
so see a feature instead of immediately, or not at all instead of just-made-it.
We're talking 5-10 minutes out of a dusk, tops, or a little deeper shade.

Bear in mind...that only matters when it gets fairly dim, and if your eyes go
to 5mm iris. Basically, 42mm can't help but be 'better' optically, but not
enough for me to grab that instead of 8x32's. Size and weight are
a big part of grabbing a pair and going out.
 
More photons from the target cause the image to update at a more rapid rate.
The effect (severe dusk/shade conditions) could be that it takes a few seconds
so see a feature instead of immediately, or not at all instead of just-made-it.
We're talking 5-10 minutes out of a dusk, tops, or a little deeper shade.

Bear in mind...that only matters when it gets fairly dim, and if your eyes go
to 5mm iris. Basically, 42mm can't help but be 'better' optically, but not
enough for me to grab that instead of 8x32's. Size and weight are
a big part of grabbing a pair and going out.

I've been busy and don't know how long "TWIGHT" has been discussed. With THAT piece of the puzzle, I can get on board. Without twilight being a factor, all bats are off.

Bill
 
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