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Corona virus threat to birding

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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 17:16   #751
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I thought that it has already killed a few dogs? cats? in S Korea who have contracted the virus?? If dogs can catch/spread it ...

If so then dogwalking definitely shouldn't be an activity people should be engaging in irresponsibly (unless it's just going to eliminate dog owners only from the population as a whole perhaps?)
Update - funnily enough on Radio 4 this afternoon a story concerning - it was dogs in Hong Kong. They were saying dog to dog or dog to human transfer was infinitesimally low out in dog walking field or wherever (can't say I agree) with dogs sneezing on others, but don't pet other people's dogs!

(Apols this isn't birding)
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 17:19   #752
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Update - funnily enough on Radio 4 this afternoon a story concerning - it was dogs in Hong Kong. They were saying dog to dog or dog to human transfer was infinitesimally low out in dog walking field or wherever (can't say I agree) with dogs sneezing on others, but don't pet other people's dogs!

(Apols this isn't birding)
My late mum always took her bins dog-walking (or her dog birding). They aren't mutually exclusive and dog-owning birders -and fox-feeding birders - will be interested.

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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 17:21   #753
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Update - funnily enough on Radio 4 this afternoon a story concerning - it was dogs in Hong Kong. They were saying dog to dog or dog to human transfer was infinitesimally low out in dog walking field or wherever (can't say I agree) with dogs sneezing on others, but don't pet other people's dogs!

(Apols this isn't birding)
From the alarmism being peddled in some quarters, we need to quarantine all our mail before opening.
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 17:23   #754
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From the alarmism being peddled in some quarters, we need to quarantine all our mail before opening.
I should burn it, that'll be safest. If it's important they'll find another way of getting the information to you.

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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 17:49   #755
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I should burn it, that'll be safest. If it's important they'll find another way of getting the information to you.

John
I think you missed my point, discussion today discussing how long the virus can potentially last on a letter should your 'posty' or anyone else in the chain be infected.

From my current experience though, all my local postal staff are taking the opportunity to 'self isolate' and a guaranteed 48hr delivery is still 'in depot' a full week later.
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 17:59   #756
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My late mum always took her bins dog-walking (or her dog birding). They aren't mutually exclusive and dog-owning birders -and fox-feeding birders - will be interested.
Don't forget: dogs and foxes are actually surfaces. Be wary ...


I guess this does concern me and my birding too; when I go out for my local exercise how many people will be out walking their dogs at the same time? - early morning wouldn't otherwise be a popular time I'd imagine and so not as safe from the crowds ...
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 18:10   #757
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I should burn it, that'll be safest. If it's important they'll find another way of getting the information to you.

John
and what if it has a cheque in it?

personally I wear gloves when unpacking parcels and use gel or wash my hands after opening any letters - perhaps this is a good time for Amazon etc to follow Alibaba’s services in Asia and start rolling out drone deliveries to the European markets?

or perhaps not such a good idea if Amazon’s gonna double them up as surveillance methods!

https://www.chargedretail.co.uk/2020...very-services/

Fortunately all my birding related stuff (which is the biggest bulk of communications) is by email other than a few periodicals. I wonder if these publications will still arrive now most people have downed tools?
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 18:26   #758
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and what if it has a cheque in it?
A - cheque? Oh yeah, Twentieth century. I remember.

Even my infrequent fees for photography arrive by BACS these days.

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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 18:38   #759
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.... In all the lockdowns around the world, people outdoors are being targeted way ahead of their actual rank in the hierarchy of risk for spread...
Total agreement. I'm curious whether this was considered a debatable point in the UK when restrictions were enacted? There also seem to be interesting cultural differences involved. Many Britons here seem exquisitely sensitive to any sense of shame at indulging in something others don't, while in America I think the common tendency is to resent any restriction of liberty. Few here would be likely to feel ashamed at being caught birding even if it were prohibited, which it's not. How are things in Czech/Poland?

Actually I think the problem is a complete lack of ranking, no sense of priorities whatever. Any possibility however remote is a source of panic. For example, the total paranoia about surface transmission, which wasn't even mentioned as a significant factor in the spread of C19 in the WHO report from Wuhan. I was going to say it "focused" on aerosol droplets in proximity to infected individuals, but that is the only transmission mode it identified at all. I don't pile my mail for three days, though I wash up after opening it.

P.S. Unrelated -- could someone point me to an explanation of British aristocrats shooting raptors? I only knew about pheasants etc.
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 18:41   #760
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Total agreement. I'm curious whether this was considered a debatable point in the UK when restrictions were enacted? There also seem to be interesting cultural differences involved. Many Britons here seem exquisitely sensitive to any sense of shame at indulging in something others don't, while in America I think the common tendency is to resent any restriction of liberty. Few here would be likely to feel ashamed at being caught birding even if it were prohibited, which it's not. How are things in Czech/Poland?

Actually I think the problem is a complete lack of ranking, no sense of priorities whatever. Any possibility however remote is a source of panic. For example, the total paranoia about surface transmission, which wasn't even mentioned as a significant factor in the spread of C19 in the WHO report from Wuhan. I was going to say it "focused" on aerosol droplets in proximity to infected individuals, but that is the only transmission mode it identified at all. I don't pile my mail for three days, though I wash up after opening it.

P.S. Unrelated -- could someone point me to an explanation of British aristocrats shooting raptors? I only knew about pheasants etc.
The aristocratic estates are stocked with birds for shooting which it's perceived that raptors kill a % of hence, they get shot and poisoned.
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 18:46   #761
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there was the high profile story a few years back:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/...archy.wildlife
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 19:03   #762
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Actually I think the problem is a complete lack of ranking, no sense of priorities whatever. Any possibility however remote is a source of panic. For example, the total paranoia about surface transmission, which wasn't even mentioned as a significant factor in the spread of C19 in the WHO report from Wuhan. I was going to say it "focused" on aerosol droplets in proximity to infected individuals, but that is the only transmission mode it identified at all. I don't pile my mail for three days, though I wash up after opening it.
People can reserve the right to take sensible precautions. If you are in the elderly and/or vulnerable part of society than it would seem once health services are in your trouble your best bet at survival is To not catch it in the first place.

Since it does persist on surfaces, and can enter the body, and you can catch it when it enters the body, would you not be wary, even if it wasn't mentioned in some report? (They did spend an awful lot of time doing an awful lot of street disinfection etc in Wuhan).

With regards worry - You can get killed just crossing the road - you're not going to stop going out and crossing roads to get to places because of the risks involved. But you don't start crossing roads with your eyes closed either ...
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 19:42   #763
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With regards worry - You can get killed just crossing the road - you're not going to stop going out and crossing roads to get to places because of the risks involved. But you don't start crossing roads with your eyes closed either ...[/quote]

You don't have to go as far as the road to get killed. The home is where most accidents occur.

In the UK just under 1800 people will die in a year on the roads. Upwards of 6000 die each year from accidents in the home. Many thousands more will be injured and require treatment at A&E or admission to hospital. Now more of us are at home, including most children, there is a danger that these numbers increase considerably.

We should all be taking extra care at home, the NHS will not be pleased if more of us turn up at A&E with fractures, concussion, burns or scalds, and I'm sure none of us want to be there.

Risk assess everything. Much of it is common sense but that seems to be lacking in many, if social distancing is anything to go by.

Stay safe everyone

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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 20:03   #764
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Indeed. Absolutely beggars belief because it is not true. The incident is set out accurately upthread. No ring ouzel. No twitchers. Short-eared Owls at Hawling:-

https://community.rspb.org.uk/wildli...ershire/837668

For the avoidance of doubt, by posting the link, I am not suggesting any of the individuals posting were involved, I am simply posting the detail of the birds.

For anyone wishing to try and steer a way through the media spin, conflicting government statements, etc, the Statutory Instrument is now published - number 350 of 2020.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/made

Of course, none of that alters the need to stay at home and save lives.

All the best
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 20:12   #765
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Actually I think the problem is a complete lack of ranking, no sense of priorities whatever. Any possibility however remote is a source of panic. For example, the total paranoia about surface transmission, which wasn't even mentioned as a significant factor in the spread of C19 in the WHO report from Wuhan. I was going to say it "focused" on aerosol droplets in proximity to infected individuals, but that is the only transmission mode it identified at all. I don't pile my mail for three days, though I wash up after opening it.
It's all about being in control.

Many Americans want to do SOMETHING. They don't like being unable to control their lives. Because our ability to limit contact with other people is minimal, especially when we are being forced to work, ride the bus/subway, etc., the only thing the control freaks can focus on is disinfectants and the focus on surfaces. But to paraphrase the experts, the virus sets its own timeline.

The other group of Americans want to prove you can't control them. That's why you have idiots out partying at spring break, rich bastards leaving NYC to g to their second homes in the Hamptons, or even worse, moron coughing on and licking products in grocery stores.

As to the times that the virus lingers on surfaces, read some of the more detailed articles. One lab put a droplet with viruses on different surfaces, and measured the half life of the virus. They then estimated how long their initial concentration would be reduced to a minimal (non-communicable? non-detectable?) concentration. But since it's half life based, the time to functional extinction is a function of the initial concentration, not an absolute.
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 20:21   #766
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The aristocratic estates are stocked with birds for shooting which it's perceived that raptors kill a % of hence, they get shot and poisoned.
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there was the high profile story a few years back
Thanks. Don't mean to rehash all that, but glad to know.
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 20:35   #767
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With regards worry - You can get killed just crossing the road - you're not going to stop going out and crossing roads to get to places because of the risks involved.
No, not normally. But many seem willing to stop doing practically everything because of the risks in this case, instead of figuring out where they mainly lie.
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 20:52   #768
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No, not normally. But many seem willing to stop doing practically everything because of the risks in this case, instead of figuring out where they mainly lie.
I agree .. except the known knows aren't really known. But I suspect we'll only really know the right way of going about things after its all over ...

There's a lot of big experiments going on right now. I think I read earlier that Sweden isn't going into lockdown for example ...
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 21:00   #769
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Britons here seem exquisitely sensitive to any sense of shame at indulging in something others don't, while in America I think the common tendency is to resent any restriction of liberty. Few here would be likely to feel ashamed at being caught birding even if it were prohibited.
Some are also completely pxxxxed off that they are following the rules when others are not. So it’s a mixture of high horse, holyer than thow and jealousy as well...
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 21:27   #770
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Some are also completely pxxxxed off that they are following the rules when others are not. So it’s a mixture of high horse, holyer than thow and jealousy as well...
and some are simply just concerned that other peoples’ behaviour might be putting the lives of their loved ones at risk.
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 21:37   #771
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Indeed. Absolutely beggars belief because it is not true.
So did the Wildlife Officer PC Westmacott make it up?

“Police said 10 cars and 15 people had set themselves up next to one another with long-sighted cameras and binoculars.
Wildlife crime officer PC Nick Westmacott said: "All of their details were obtained, and they were politely told to go home.”


Was this an old archive story or something then- gets curioser and curioser
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 22:38   #772
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So did the Wildlife Officer PC Westmacott make it up?

“Police said 10 cars and 15 people had set themselves up next to one another with long-sighted cameras and binoculars.
Wildlife crime officer PC Nick Westmacott said: "All of their details were obtained, and they were politely told to go home.”


Was this an old archive story or something then- gets curioser and curioser
No. I was pointing out that it was photographers at Hawling Short-eared Owls rather than a fictional Ring Ouzel twitch at Cleeve Common.

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The incident is set out accurately upthread. No ring ouzel. No twitchers. Short-eared Owls at Hawling:-

https://community.rspb.org.uk/wildli...ershire/837668

For the avoidance of doubt, by posting the link, I am not suggesting any of the individuals posting were involved, I am simply posting the detail of the birds.
My confidence is based on a Gloucester birder who has tweeted today from first hand information and the story on the BBC website is simply wrong:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-52047532

"About 15 twitchers from across England congregated at an undisclosed spot in Cleeve Common, near Cheltenham, after the ring ouzel was reportedly spotted."

It is interesting that the story is not credited.

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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 22:48   #773
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Bizarre selective quoting. Do you really not understand that I am pointing out that it was photographers at Hawling Short-eared Owls rather than a fictional Ring Ouzel twitch at Cleeve Common.



My confidence is based on a Gloucester birder who has tweeted today from first hand information and the story on the BBC website is simply wrong:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-52047532

"About 15 twitchers from across England congregated at an undisclosed spot in Cleeve Common, near Cheltenham, after the ring ouzel was reportedly spotted."

It is interesting that the story is not credited.

All the best
To be honest it wasn't all that clear.

(Genuine) Fake News from the BBC does seem surprising - is there no way to contact/get the story retracted or corrected??
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 22:55   #774
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To be honest it wasn't all that clear.

(Genuine) Fake News from the BBC does seem surprising - is there no way to contact/get the story retracted or corrected??
Which is why I re-edited mine straight away........

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No. I was pointing out that it was photographers at Hawling Short-eared Owls rather than a fictional Ring Ouzel twitch at Cleeve Common.
Apologies. Lets face it. The strain is showing on almost all of us!
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Old Thursday 26th March 2020, 22:56   #775
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No. I was pointing out that it was photographers at Hawling Short-eared Owls rather than a fictional Ring Ouzel twitch
Ok - it didn’t help that the RSPB link dates back to a blog entry about SEO sightings in February 2014

I suppose the issue is any group of 15 or so birders/photographers driving anywhere regardless of the location or the species of bird they go to look at, will be ‘sent home’ - it does all feel a little oppressive to be sure.

btw I selected the quote to make my point about whether the police had their facts wrong or were spreading untrue stories (which I thought unlikely!)- I had no ‘bizarre’ reasons for doing so

I misunderstood what you were trying to say - apologies
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