What if...... (1 Viewer)

eronald said:

Jan,

The rep told you “the higher the price we ask for it the harder the customer runs”. Leica is not doing spreadsheet management, they are doing brand management. They hold luxurious parties and events, open their own boutiques, serve expensive wine in their shops and I have seen them drop $5K camera bodies because they don’t even have a table to show their products. Also, they compete with their dealers.


You need to understand how *they* make their money, so you can make yours. It is clear from your post that you don’t any more understand what Leica does, because they changed. I have no problem with your refusal to carry their product, it is a commercially viable decision, but I still feel you have come to this decision out of a frustration born from a lack of comprehension rather than from an understanding of what is happening.


You obviously don’t understand this world; go to the center of Amsterdam, and take the manager of the Vuitton store out for lunch, give her a binocular for her partner or child, and as you are not a competitor maybe she will be frank and she will introduce you to the world of luxury marketing and branding, and explain what the future holds for you when suppliers follow this path. You need a friend or guide to a very different retail world which is now encroaching on your own zone of activity.


Edmund

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jan van daalen said:

Long time no speak:t:

Do we need a 7x35? No.
Do we need a Icon 35? No.
Should I want one? Absolutely!

So do yourself a favor and get one.
Believe it or not, but I'll do the same. Amsterdam (Leica store) is just 20 km from my place and after Christmas I'll walk in, get one and walk out.
It's an icon from my youth. This baby can't help her bosses sucksB

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Hermann said:

I'm different. My local dealer who's been supporting Leica for God knows how many years is one of those who misses out because of the decision of the Leica management. I feel that decision was so awful I won't buy a Trinovid 7x35, a binocular I certainly don't "need" either.

I just don't want to support a company that behaves in this way. It's as simple as that.

Hermann

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jan van daalen said:

Edmund,

I see, you changed your post after posting.

I do not know what your professional background is, but it is clear to me that you and I live in two different worlds.
Mine is described by Temmie (a BF member and customer of my shop), in a post of him, as "located in the Long Islands of Amsterdam where the rich and famous live".
According to your description of profiling this is the Leica target group. I know these people as hardworking where behind every successful man/woman a strong partner is present with equal power and presence.
If you are targeting on the "second shift" (the one he got thanks to his first wife) in other words the gold digger type, I must wake you up out of a dream. She is a vast minority. At least in my reality.
The Netherlands is a small country. You drive from North to South in three hours and from East to West in two and we are in the center of it. Our customers come from all over the country.
FWIW, Leica Store Amsterdam makes no profit. It is used as a place where every Leica product can be seen in a, indeed, luxurious surrounding with staff who knows their stuff and with a excellent attitude. I don't see them as competing with their dealers. Most of the dealers don't stock the most Leica items. Where should a Leica addict go to when most dealers don't stock? Right! To a Leica Store.

Let us at least agree that we disagree:t:

Jan

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eronald said:

FWIW all the Apple Stores in Paris make no profit AFAIK, and have made no profit ever, which must be the reason why a larger one gets added every year. I feel very fortunate that Apple is so philantropic as to provide me with these wonderful showrooms, although one does need to wait a long time to buy, because their staff is terribly busy, so many customers come there. Of course, they dont compete with the retail trade.

There are 2 Leica dealers within 250m of my home, and a company boutique within walking distance, so I am very fortunate I can buy a Retrovid without needing to go where the rich and famous live.

Paris is very much a fashion city, full of supersmart women who direct the international marketing strategies of the big luxury and cosmetic houses, and in fact a lot of business students come here to study luxury branding. It is perfectly possible that this is the reason I am making the mistake of confusing Leica with Hermes, obviously these brands were never connected


Edmund

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eronald said:

FWIW all the Apple Stores in Paris make no profit AFAIK, and have made no profit ever, which must be the reason why a larger one gets added every year. I feel very fortunate that Apple is so philantropic as to provide me with these wonderful showrooms, although one does need to wait a long time to buy, because their staff is terribly busy, so many customers come there. Of course, they dont compete with the retail trade.

There are 2 Leica dealers within 250m of my home, and a company boutique within walking distance, so I am very fortunate I can buy a Retrovid without needing to go where the rich and famous live.

Paris is very much a fashion city, full of supersmart women who direct the international marketing strategies of the big luxury and cosmetic houses, and in fact a lot of business students come here to study luxury branding. It is perfectly possible that this is the reason I am making the mistake of confusing Leica with Hermes, obviously these brands were never connected


Edmund

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jan van daalen said:

Leica is more than Sport Optics, that's true but we deal with Sport Optics here and their customer profile is quite different from the camera division. Two completely different worlds AND customers.

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dalat said:

I agree. In photography, Leica sits in is very own special niche, way apart from the other big brands. Leica makes cameras that are not really competitive with the top level products of other brands, cost 10 times more, but that appeal to both a small group of nostalgic photo enthousiasts and a probably much bigger group of luxury shoppers.

This is different with sport optics, where Leica offers similar products at similar prices as the competition. Brand appeal and status probably also plays its role in this segment, but among birders and hunters, the competitors brands (Zeiss or Swaro) have a similar or even better appeal as does Leica. But brand appeal is usually not the main consideration and choices are much more utilitarian. Buyers don't want to go to a fancy Leica store but to a good stocked shop where they can compare all brands side by side.

As Jan says,: "Two completely different worlds AND customers."

However, Leica has often in the past blurred a bit the lines between these two worlds with its special edition binoculars, silverline, colourline, ostrich, hermes etc.... Here in BF, Leica was usually ridiculed for these products and no one here ever asked where these bins can be purchased. They were obviously not meant for birders and who would want to pay more for non-HD in colour when black is more beautiful anyway? Not sure if Leica already earlier used a different distribution model (Leica stores only etc.) for these binoculars, but no one cared.

Comes along the Retro-Trinovid. Leica's intention, as it is clear now, is to place those in the segment of it's special edition binoculars and "lifestyle" products, but unlike weird ostrich ultravids, the Retrovid actually appeals a lot to birders and binocular enthousiasts as well. Those are now bitterly dissapointed and upset, discovering that Leica did actually not have them mind with this beautiful product, but rather those luxury shoppers.

Was it oversight from Leica to not realise the appeal of the Retrovid for the utilitarian sport optics buyers? Or did they assume (perhaps rightly?) that the interest among those would be merely theoretical and that in the end, they would go for waterproof Ultravids or Noctivids anyway?

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jan van daalen said:

Hi Dalat,

I really can't imagine one reason for Leica's decision to exclude dealers from sale of the Retrovid.

Jan

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Mike F said:

Jan, I've mentioned this before, but could it simply be that Leica themselves don't consider it to be a competitive model, optically, and they don't want to present it on the open market for fear of competitive comparison. As long as it's only a retro/boutique item, available through their own stores, they just have to weather the criticisms of a minority group of dealers and a few enthusiasts, but if they release it openly then the whole binocular market and community will be comparing it critically to models from other manufacturers (and other Leica's).

Maybe I'm way off the mark (probably!) but it seems at least possible to me. I note that the original Retrovid (with UP prisms and faithful to the original) were intended for dealers as well........

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jan van daalen said:

Hi Mike,

Leaves us indeed to the question:
Why exclude and notify the dealers at the absolute last minute.

Jan

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jan van daalen said:

OK, the Retrovid was just picked up from the Leica store in Amsterdam. Pics will follow.
First impression:smooth working and well built bin. ##2192311.
Since I also have the genuine model ##672808 I can make some comparisons.
Length overall new to old 134 against 128 mm.
Eyelens diameter both 21mm.
Objective lens tube 51 against 46.5mm.
Prismhousing both 51 mm.
Oculairhousing 32 against 30.5mm.
Distance of objective lens inside tube 9mm against 8mm.

One "small" downside is that there are dust pickels inside.

Jan

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jan van daalen said:

Hi Dalat,

I don't know anything about photography. It just hasn't my interest.
Some of my customers do, on the other hand, and after several requests from them I reached out to Leica (it seemed they sell camera's as well) and laid out my problem. The on safari going customer, who bought a binocular also needed a camera. Which one to choose. It turned out the V-Lux 2 was the right choice so I ordered 5 pieces of them, including nice safari bags to go with them, just to be confronted with the fact that three months later these models were followed up by newer (better?) models. I gave the camera's to my staff, walked away and never looked back. I do only hear raving comments about them though. I assume Edmund would call them overprized Panasonic clones.........
Photography? Nehh, not my cup of tea, nor my world.

Until the Retro affair, we the dealers, could obtain every Leica item we ordered. There were no restrictions and AFAIK, except for the last one there are still no restrictions.
Do these, so-called fashionmodels like the colourline sell well? No. So one could conclude that these models are made for different target groups within the Leica customer profile. AFAIK they are only sold on airports taxfree zones to people who knows the quality of the Leica brand, and where it stands for, looking for a special gift for some loved ones. Nothing wrong with that.
Personally I like the Silver, Black and Safari Ultravid line. Do these sell well? No. Different targetgroup, the group some people make jokes about. Would I buy one, if I was a customer? Yes, absolutely. Do I see myself as one belonging to that targetgroup? Ehhhh....nehhh.
Would I ever buy a Hermes or Zagato (as a private person)? Hell no!!!
However, one of my younger (21) female staff members loves them and she fits no way into the profiled targetgroup.

I really can't imagine one reason for Leica's decision to exclude dealers from sale of the Retrovid. It's a fu**** insult.

Jan

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eronald said:

Jan,

I have a Panasonic camera, and within its abilities it is excellent. However if I were a novice, and were going on a once-in-lifetime safari, then I would ask for advice on what to take, from someone who is as careful when selling cameras as you are when selling binoculars, and especially one who knows from customer reports how much heat, water and how intense shocks a given body can take before it decides to protest and deprive the safari goer of a chance to print memories.

I have no idea whether a Leica-Panasonic consumer model would survive the vibrations and dust of Safari conditions. However I think they market “pocket travelzoom” models with a long-range collapsible lens that would make perfect ... backups for when something happens to the real camera - a bit like a Fiat can be a nice backup to a Ferrari

Edmund

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