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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Zeiss 8x56t fl (1 Viewer)

Thanks for your reply. Going off topic briefly, I read you did try a x54 HT and dismissed it for various QC and possibly design reasons. One thing that might tempt me to part with the 8x56 is that I now have an ex-Troubadour 8x42 HT and find that very good indeed if not quite as easy a view. Did you have any experience with HT in that 8x42 configuration? Mine is set up very nicely, it seems.

Tom

Hi Tom.

I spent some time comparing an 8x42 HT to both my wife's 8x42 FL and my 8x56 FL in this thread:

https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=313034

I don't plan to part with my 8x56 FL ever, no matter what else I buy.

Henry

Just read through the linked thread for the first time in years. It's quite a good one if I do say so myself, with some excellent contributions from Kimmo Absetz.
 
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Zeiss Fls

They are still a great glass, going on 6 years since production ceased. The 8X56 and 10X56 are the best performers against glare and ghosting, and I have compared them to the best made today. The 8X42 is still a great low light 8X42, and the on-axis resolution stunning.

Andy W.
 

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They are still a great glass, going on 6 years since production ceased. The 8X56 and 10X56 are the best performers against glare and ghosting, and I have compared them to the best made today. The 8X42 is still a great low light 8X42, and the on-axis resolution stunning.

Andy W.
Andy. I agree on the FL's. They are still competitive with any alpha out there today. One of the best for CA control and we all know Henry likes his 8x56 FL and I like my 8x32 FL and 8x42 FL. With the plastic body they are light, strong and comfortable to use also. With the big AK prisms they are brighter and sharper on-axis than the Swarovski EL. I notice the difference in transmission with the AK prisms and contrast and on-axis sharpness seems better also. The binoculars I have with it are brighter and sharper like my Zeiss Conquest HD 8x56, my Zeiss FL 8x42 and my two Vortex Razor's UHD 8x42 and 18x56. The AK necessitates a slightly longer and heavier binocular but it is worth it. I am surprised Zeiss didn't use an AK in the SF. The designers are more worried about form over function. Form sells more binoculars and the normal person probably won't notice a 5% improvement in transmission between an AK prism and an SP. Here is a list of binoculars that have AK prisms.

DDoptics Pirschler 8x56 (identicl with Vixen New Foresta, see below)
- DDoptics Nachtfalke 10x60 / 12x60
- Docter 8x56 ED/OH

- Optolyth Royal 8x56 / 10x56
- Optolyth Royal 9x63 / 15x63
- SIG-Sauer Zulu 9 (9x45 / 11x45)
- Swarovski SLC 8x56 / 10x56 / 15x56
- Vixen New Foresta 8x56 (identical with DDoptics Pirschler, see above)
- Zeiss Conquest 8x50 / 10x50 / 8x56 / 10x56 (out of production)
- Zeiss Conquest HD 8x56 / 10x56 / 15x56

- Zeiss Dialyt 8x56
- Zeiss Victory Fl 8x42/ 8x56 / 10x56 (out of production)
- Zeiss Victory HT 8x42 / 10x42
- Zeiss Victory HT 8x54 / 10x54
> Maven B4
> Maven B5
> Nikon WX 7x50 IF and 10x50 IF
> Vortex Razor UHD 8x42
> Vortex Razor UHD 10x42
> Vortex Razor UHD 12x50
> Vortex Razor UHD 18x56
 
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I like your passion for bigger sized binoculars. For me not everything must be lightweight. I hope Zeiss will bring back some bigger stuff with the best glass, best mechanics and best optics. If it would be only me I'd say bring some real edgy 8x60 please. U-Boot-style but with today's know-how.
 
I notice the difference in transmission with the AK prisms and contrast and on-axis sharpness seems better also. The binoculars I have with it are brighter and sharper like my Zeiss Conquest HD 8x56, my two Zeiss FL's the 32mm and the 42mm and my two Vortex Razor's UHD 8x42 and 18x56. The AK necessitates a slightly longer and heavier binocular but it is worth it. I am surprised Zeiss didn't use an AK in the SF. The designers are more worried about form over function. Form sells more binoculars and the normal person probably won't notice a 5% improvement in transmission between an AK prism and an SP.
The 32mm FL does not have AK prisms. I too would like to see more of them, but is there good evidence that they contribute to contrast or sharpness? (I'd like to think so given the lack of dual-purpose surfaces, but am not sure.) Perhaps it's just that you're looking at a sample of generally larger binos that stop down well in daylight. I was also surprised the SF couldn't find room for AK prisms, given its size. As for transmission, the difference often seems less than 5%. Between Swaro SLC and EL for example, it's more like 3%. (Coating differences must make comparison tricky.)

Edit: I wonder whether there's even an industry standard for measuring transmission. As I consider the claims of midrange vs high-end manufacturers, I doubt it.
 
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The 32mm FL does not have AK prisms. I too would like to see more of them, but is there good evidence that they contribute to contrast or sharpness? (I'd like to think so given the lack of dual-purpose surfaces, but am not sure.) Perhaps it's just that you're looking at a sample of generally larger binos that stop down well in daylight. I was also surprised the SF couldn't find room for AK prisms, given its size. As for transmission, the difference often seems less than 5%. Between Swaro SLC and EL for example, it's more like 2%. (Coating differences must make comparison tricky.)
Your right The FL 8x32 has SP's because Zeiss wanted to make it short and compact and there was no room for an AK. Everytime I use my FL 8x32 I get to thinking it is really good and it is for a 32mm but then I switch to my FL 8x42 and it is much brighter and sharper on-axis with better contrast also. The bigger aperture pulls in 70% more light and those AK prisms transmit a lot more light. On the SF they were going for that forward balance and ergonomics over sheer performance. Swarovski says 90% transmission on the 42mm EL and 93% on the 56mm SLC. Allbino's says 94% transmission on the 8x42 FL, 8x56 FL and the Conquest HD 8x56.
 
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Stearns Mad Dog Gear Bino Manager - posts #28 & #29

As for Henry's preference for carrying his 8x56, there is some info about the Bino Manager at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=139718
The patents referred to show both how the pouch and the abbreviated/ strap versions work - the latter makes things clearer, see the attached images
I also found a couple of other images showing the strap version - again attached

While different in detail, the pouch version is in some ways similar as to how I use the Crooked Horn Bino Shield with my EL SV 12x50:

. . .
In essence the Bino Shield is an elastic edged shower cap with an attached adjustable elastic strap (see the first two images)

Interestingly, the advertising fails to mention one of it’s main features!
As it hugs the binocular to the torso, it can be adjusted so that the torso comfortably supports perhaps 2/3 of the weight of the binocular
. . .
So especially with heavier binos, you can either use:
- a lighter neck strap then otherwise, or;
- a neck strap instead of a harness
either of which seems to be a big advantage
. . .
The Bino Shield is only available in various complex camouflage finishes, which don’t appeal to me for a number of reasons
However, while a more aesthetically appealing alternative is available, it’s seems excessively expensive - the Swazi brand Bino Beret, which is also offered by Leica (see the last photo)

and
. . .
I usually adjust a neck strap so that it is not much longer than necessary to place over my head
This places the bino (and the Bino Shield) at chest level verses the lower level in the Crooked Horn image
And this enables adjusting the Bino Shield so that it’s strap supports most of the weight

The Bino Shield avoids the complication and inconvenience of an X harness . . . especially when used in conjunction with a pack and it’s harness
It also avoids the inconvenience of an X harness where the weather is such that you have to add/remove clothing
. . .


So perhaps an alternative for some, especially with heavier binoculars


John
 

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Hi Tom.

I spent some time comparing an 8x42 HT to both my wife's 8x42 FL and my 8x56 FL in this thread:

https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=313034

I don't plan to part with my 8x56 FL ever, no matter what else I buy.

Henry

Just read through the linked thread for the first time in years. It's quite a good one if I do say so myself, with some excellent contributions from Kimmo Absetz.

Hi Henry, thank you - I will read your 'quite good' review any minute now and look forward to seeing your findings. I do find the 8x42HT excellent, some apparently too bright! Sometimes I have come across links to writing by Kimmo Absetz, but the links I have seen are broken.

Another comparison I'd love to see for no special reason other than curiosity would be the Leica Ultravid HD Plus 10x50 vs the Zeiss Victory T*FL 10x56. I don't have either but as a long time Leica user - camera lenses but also more recently binoculars - I like the way they do colour whether or not it is actually neutral.

Tom
 
Hi Henry, thank you - I will read your 'quite good' review any minute now and look forward to seeing your findings. I do find the 8x42HT excellent, some apparently too bright! Sometimes I have come across links to writing by Kimmo Absetz, but the links I have seen are broken.

Another comparison I'd love to see for no special reason other than curiosity would be the Leica Ultravid HD Plus 10x50 vs the Zeiss Victory T*FL 10x56. I don't have either but as a long time Leica user - camera lenses but also more recently binoculars - I like the way they do colour whether or not it is actually neutral.

Tom

Hi Tom,

The only experience I have; The image of both the 8x56 Night Owl and 7x42 FL T are equally enjoyable to me. The Night Owl is too big and heavy to practically carry hiking, so it stays on the tripod mostly. If forced to pick, the 7 wins for wider FOV and more depth of focus, maybe a bit brighter until darkness. And it can be carried. I've never seen an 8x56 (or 10x56) in FL so don't know how either compares to the Night Owl, the 7x42 FL, or the 10x50 HD+

Mike
 
...I have 12 binoculars including an 8x32 and 8x42 EDG and an 8x32 and a 8x42 Zeiss FL and my Zeiss Conquest HD 8x56 has the best, clearest, most glare free and aberration free view of any of them. The Conquest HD 8x56 is very close in performance to the 8x56 FL with even a little less distortion but not quite as big of FOV. The 10x56's or 10x50's will not give you the view an 8x56 will. I had a Swarovski 8x56 SLC also and it is very good but it is not quite as sharp on-axis as the big Zeiss 8x56 FL or Zeiss Conquest HD 8x56.

Woww!... (wide-eyed...) I need to have a look through the 8x56 Conquest next time I get the chance! If it's a better performer optically than the 8x56 SLC it must be quite something, leaving aside the fact that it's being priced (on a quick glance around the net) around £200 less than the SLC. I mean...it's not as though you've ever been similarly enthusiastic about a "keeper" that you've later rid yourself of, have you...?

3:)
 
Everytime I use my FL 8x32 I get to thinking it is really good and it is for a 32mm but then I switch to my FL 8x42 and it is much brighter and sharper on-axis with better contrast also. The bigger aperture pulls in 70% more light and those AK prisms transmit a lot more light.

Dennis, Its as if you've attained some kind of an optical epiphany with your guaranteed-to-be-temporary infatuation of AK prisms. Perhaps they can also be used to bring about world peace, or at least help locate it in the dim light of the apocalypse, but that is probably beyond the scope of this forum...

With regard to your endless links and references, kindly examine the transmission figures on one of your oft-quoted, favorite, go-to websites for reliable information about light transmission. Compare the 8x32 FL with the 8x42 FL....

Bill Cook said it over 14 years ago on this forum, in a discussion about light transmission, that a larger aperture binocular has the simple capacity to be brighter than a smaller one, even if the smaller one has higher transmission figures. Could you ever imagine that might be the SOLE perceptible cause in this case? And perhaps something you could not even see in broad daylight.

"But... but... its got AK prisms!" cried the hapless Denco...

The idea that an AK configuration, by default, confers such instant overwhelming superiority in optics is unfounded, pointless speculation and blather on your part. Or, to be more technical, hooey.

-Bill
 
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Dennis, Its as if you've attained some kind of an optical epiphany with your guaranteed-to-be-temporary infatuation of AK prisms. Perhaps they can also be used to bring about world peace, or at least help locate it in the dim light of the apocalypse, but that is probably beyond the scope of this forum...

With regard to your endless links and references, kindly examine the transmission figures on one of your oft-quoted, favorite, go-to websites for reliable information about light transmission. Compare the 8x32 FL with the 8x42 FL....

Bill Cook said it over 14 years ago on this forum, in a discussion about light transmission, that a larger aperture binocular has the simple capacity to be brighter than a smaller one, even if the smaller one has higher transmission figures. Could you ever imagine that might be the SOLE perceptible cause in this case? And perhaps something you could not even see in broad daylight.

"But... but... its got AK prisms!" cried the hapless Denco...

The idea that an AK configuration, by default, confers such instant overwhelming superiority in optics is unfounded, pointless speculation and blather on your part. Or, to be more technical, hooey.

-Bill
Your right that the 8x42 FL is going to pull in a lot more light than the 8x32 FL especially in low light situations and the aperture has more to with it than the AK prism. When I really notice the difference in prism type is when I compare my three 8x42's. The Zeiss FL 8x42 and Vortex Razor UHD 8x42 with the AK's are always brighter than the Nikon EDG II 8x42 with the SP with my eyes. Same aperture, all have quality glass and high quality coatings. I am not saying the AK binoculars are overwhelmingly superior. I am saying they are brighter. It is a known fact despite your blabbering that the AK transmits at a higher efficiency than the SP. If it isn't so why does Zeiss use the AK in their HT binoculars which are designed for low light. I know what I see and your trying to convince me it isn't so isn't going to change my mind.

From a thread on AK versus SP Prisms by Kevin Purcell(https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=131167)
"As ronh points out both the entrance and exit faces on an SP prisms are both transmission and reflection faces so you have to compromise the AR coating on those faces. This is were the real difference lies. There is also an "extra" air gap in the SP design that causes some loss. So the AK prisms have 4 TIR reflections plus 2 air-glass transitions (none of which are compromised) whereas SP prisms have 5 "TIR" reflections (two of which are compromised so they're not "total" TIRs), 1 mirror reflection and 4 air-glass transitions (3 of which are compromised). I would guess a compromised glass-air transition (and a compromised TIR) are probably worth about 1% loss in each case so the SP I would guess is something like 5% down on the AK in the best case. I think these differences and compromises are the main reasons for the transmission difference between the two prism types today."
 
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I think the SP system is more popular due to cost and keeping the size/weight of the glass down, esp in certain formats. In larger designed aperture glass, much more room with the required length for the AK prism. I mean the FL and UHD are longer and larger than the EDG and other premium 8X42s. The FL is light due to the non metallic composition of the body (I really wish more manufacturers would use this idea from the FL). How heavy is the UHD 8X42? 914 grams and 7" long, it is a big 8X42...no?

So increased size/weight and a bit more transmission, VS portability and a few % loss in transmission. I really do not notice it when I am about with the glass in the day anyway.


Andy W.
 
"But... but... its got AK prisms!" cried the hapless Denco...

The idea that an AK configuration, by default, confers such instant overwhelming superiority in optics is unfounded, pointless speculation and blather on your part. Or, to be more technical, hooey.

In all fairness to denco... he's by no means the only Abbé-Koening fetishist - I mean fan - in this worthy corner of cyberspace... o:D
 
Dennis my point is simply that you tend to gravitate towards a fixed idea that some 'thing' is the 'key' ingredient in a binocular, and then spend a few weeks spewing unfounded claims that whatever product has that 'thing' is undeniably superior, and deserves all the credit for what you imagine you are experiencing. It could be 'turbo', XT,
HD, STD... doesn't matter. Its an absurd, dishonest evaluation of your own experience, frankly.

I understand the mechanics of an AK prism setup having fewer reflective surfaces than an S-P configuration. No problem. With your endless combing over of specs, you should know by now that there are some S-P binoculars on the market with higher light transmission figures than some with AK. Big deal. However that minor detail invalidates a lot of what you've been posting all over the forum. There's no secret sauce with an AK prism. Just engineering, design choices, etc.

Take a look at the transmission specs on the Nikon WX 10 x 50. Abbe-Koenig prisms! Light Transmission: 85% Wha?
Hey, maybe even lower if they had used S-P prisms, right? So what. The point is your false assumption that every binocular you can get your hands on, or read about, that has these 'magical' prisms automatically is brighter, has higher light transmission, etc. That's what I object to.

Some folks might prefer a binocular that weighs half a pound less than another of the
same aperture and magnification. EVEN at the 'potential' expense of a few percent less transmission....

You said the other day that you can detect a difference of 2% in light transmission. Well, that makes you pretty unique.
in fact you are the only person on Earth I've ever heard make that claim.

-Bill
 
I think the SP system is more popular due to cost and keeping the size/weight of the glass down, esp in certain formats. In larger designed aperture glass, much more room with the required length for the AK prism. I mean the FL and UHD are longer and larger than the EDG and other premium 8X42s. The FL is light due to the non metallic composition of the body (I really wish more manufacturers would use this idea from the FL). How heavy is the UHD 8X42? 914 grams and 7" long, it is a big 8X42...no?

So increased size/weight and a bit more transmission, VS portability and a few % loss in transmission. I really do not notice it when I am about with the glass in the day anyway.


Andy W.
Andy. I really never noticed it in the field either until I started comparing these three 8x42's back to back. I have never compared similar binoculars with the two different prism designs until now. It is very noticeable IMO.
 
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So increased size/weight and a bit more transmission, VS portability and a few % loss in transmission. I really do not notice it when I am about with the glass in the day anyway.


Andy W.

There you go. Its that simple.
 
Dennis my point is simply that you tend to gravitate towards a fixed idea that some 'thing' is the 'key' ingredient in a binocular, and then spend a few weeks spewing unfounded claims that whatever product has that 'thing' is undeniably superior, and deserves all the credit for what you imagine you are experiencing. It could be 'turbo', XT,
HD, STD... doesn't matter. Its an absurd, dishonest evaluation of your own experience, frankly.

I understand the mechanics of an AK prism setup having fewer reflective surfaces than an S-P configuration. No problem. With your endless combing over of specs, you should know by now that there are some S-P binoculars on the market with higher light transmission figures than some with AK. Big deal. However that minor detail invalidates a lot of what you've been posting all over the forum. There's no secret sauce with an AK prism. Just engineering, design choices, etc.

Take a look at the transmission specs on the Nikon WX 10 x 50. Abbe-Koenig prisms! Light Transmission: 85% Wha?
Hey, maybe even lower if they had used S-P prisms, right? So what. The point is your false assumption that every binocular you can get your hands on, or read about, that has these 'magical' prisms automatically is brighter, has higher light transmission, etc. That's what I object to.

Some folks might prefer a binocular that weighs half a pound less than another of the
same aperture and magnification. EVEN at the 'potential' expense of a few percent less transmission....

You said the other day that you can detect a difference of 2% in light transmission. Well, that makes you pretty unique.
in fact you are the only person on Earth I've ever heard make that claim.

-Bill
I am not saying every AK binocular is superior to every SP binocular. It just surprised me the difference in brightness between these three binoculars and the AK logically seemed to be the underlying reason. I would speculate if an SP binocular has higher transmission than an AK binocular it has better glass, better coatings or less air to glass surfaces in the optical design because the AK is always going to be an inherent advantage. Using the Nikon WX 10x50 isn't really a fair example of the advantages of an AK prisms high transmission because it is a very complex binocular and has many air to glass surfaces to achieve the astounding FOV it achieves. It is literally chock full of glass. Notice they did use an AK prism probably to keep the transmission to acceptable levels. That example means NOTHING. I agree that some people may prefer the lighter smaller body of an SP prism binocular. That is probably why Zeiss didn't use one in the SF. Form over function sells more binoculars. But they did keep the weight down on the FL's with the plastic bodies and the use of high fluorite glass to keep the focal length down. You do have to decide if you want ultimate performance or you want a more compact binocular. The Vortex UHD's are certainly longer and heavier because of the AK prism but IMO the performance is worth it. The transmission on the Zeiss 8x42 FL is 94% and the transmission on the Nikon EDG 8x42 is 90% and I could not find any transmission figures on the Razor UHD but I bet it is around 94% also.
 
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