'RetroPorro' a Possibility says Leica (1 Viewer)

Troubador · Jan 31, 2020

In a forthcoming interview with Stephan Albrecht of Leica, you will read that a retro-porro, in the same way as the Retrovid, would be considered by Leica if the demand is there. Herr Albrecht specifically says he would welcome feedback from Birdforum members about this.

Take note: this is not a cast-iron promise but it is an opportunity for Leica porro enthusiasts to nominate models and to say that they would definitely be interested in buying such a model.

Lee

PYRTLE · Jan 31, 2020

Interesting news but how many birders now using alpha porro would want to go back to perhaps their first introduction to using a hand held optic. Not for me I'm afraid, I just dont see a viable market but a specialist venture for collectors and enthusiasts ( cite Nikon WX ).

MandoBear · Jan 31, 2020

I could see the appeal - given the enduring popularity of the Habicht range from Swarovski and the Nikon EII series. What I'd like to see would be a modern, waterproof (or at least highly resistant) version of the Zeiss Oberkochen 8x30 - but I just don't see Leica doing that somehow (and I don't see Zeiss going down that road any time soon).

A modern, sealed, version of the Binuxit could be somewhat interesting - but probably not sufficiently distinct in the marketplace from a Habicht (and countless other Zeiss-styled 8x30s still available new or used). But maybe a modern version of the Kern Military 8x30 - with central focusing, modern, glasses friendly eyepieces, premium glass and modern coatings - and waterproof of course. That would be quite an appealing and very distinctive package, and something that would speak to a particular aspect of Leica's heritage.

jan van daalen · Jan 31, 2020

I don't see any Porro sale specially for birding happening, but in the tradition of the Retrovid line (I love the 7x35) a Porro II style prism 10x50, like the pre WWII model and/or the Amplivid model would be more than welcome.
A kind of "My Heritage Collection".

Jan

Boogieshrew · Jan 31, 2020

I would be interested in a 7x35 Porto if it matched the Nikon SE in quality.
I don't know whether that matches any Leica models of yesteryear.

Holger Merlitz · Jan 31, 2020

A high quality 7x35 wide angle Porro would always be welcome. Nothing similar on the market. Though, with 'retro' Leica possibly means a revival of something they have done in the past. They made outstanding Porro II binoculars during the first half of the past century, and those Porro II glasses actually look kind of elegant (certainly a 'must' in order to qualify for selling in a Leica store). No worry guys: These prisms are easily made within tight tolerances

Leica is welcome to contact me for discussions.

Cheers,
Holger

jan van daalen · Jan 31, 2020

Holger Merlitz said:
A high quality 7x35 wide angle Porro would always be welcome. Nothing similar on the market. Though, with 'retro' Leica possibly means a revival of something they have done in the past. They made outstanding Porro II binoculars during the first half of the past century, and those Porro II glasses actually look kind of elegant (certainly a 'must' in order to qualify for selling in a Leica store). No worry guys: These prisms are easily made within tight tolerances

Leica is welcome to contact me for discussions.

Cheers,
Holger

You should contact Tilman Taube (Leica/Minox/GSO).
The two of you could accomplish miracles.

Jan

Holger Merlitz · Jan 31, 2020

jan van daalen said:
You should contact Tilman Taube (Leica/Minox/GSO).
The two of you could accomplish miracles.

Jan

Hello Jan,

Thanks for your suggestion, I know Tilman! I think he has been working with Blaser (or consulting them) when I met him last time. I take he is not with Leica any more, though he may still be in contact with them.

Quite sure I gonna meet him on the IWA this year.

Cheers,
Holger

jan van daalen · Jan 31, 2020

Holger Merlitz said:
Hello Jan,

Thanks for your suggestion, I know Tilman! I think he has been working with Blaser (or consulting them) when I met him last time. I take he is not with Leica any more, though he may still be in contact with them.

Quite sure I gonna meet him on the IWA this year.

Cheers,
Holger

Me too.
AFAIK he is the one who took the initiative for "The Heritage Collection" and is the "architect" of the current Leica museum.

Jan

Omid · Jan 31, 2020

This is good news Lee! I would absolutely welcome a line of Leica porro-prism binoculars: 8X50, 10X50 etc. similar to the classic Carl Zeiss Jena models! These binoculars could achieve what Nikon WX failed to achieve: being collectible and functional.

-Omid

PS. Holger, I mentioned you to Mr. Albrecht at Shot Show last week. Your name came up in a conversation we were having about Birdforum.

Hermann · Jan 31, 2020

MandoBear said:
What I'd like to see would be a modern, waterproof (or at least highly resistant) version of the Zeiss Oberkochen 8x30 - but I just don't see Leica doing that somehow (and I don't see Zeiss going down that road any time soon).

Actually the Zeiss Oberkochen 8x30 was at least splashproof with their rubber seals between the eyepieces and the body.

Hermann

wllmspd · Jan 31, 2020

There are some good old Porros, 8x30E2, 7x35 Rangemasters, Sard 6x42. Very Wide angle (70+ degree and ideally flat field) and with good eye relief would be the key. The WX show you don’t need Porro for these sort of views.. For daytime use keeping the be weight down would be key, which the WX and the many old “featherweight” Porros arent.
A sized scaled WX with suitably scaled price would be a very nice tool.

Peter

Foss · Feb 1, 2020

A retro 6x24 Binolit with modern high quality glass and waterproofing does sound intriguing, Mandobear, especially if it's razor sharp to the edges of its 8.5° FOV.

tenex · Feb 1, 2020

As some have said already, the key to any serious interest would have to be the combination of a wide field (as in classic porros) yet reasonably flat also. Greater flatness would distinguish the Retro from other porro options, both vintage and current; the wider field, from roof-prism offerings. It would require more sophisticated oculars than a true classic, but that cost would be offset by the simpler porro construction. The most desirable configurations would be 7x35, 8x30 or 40, 10x40, much like the Retrovids.

That said, the Retrovids don't seem to have been designed primarily for optical performance.

wdc · Feb 1, 2020

My wishlist for a retro reissue, would include a few of the modern conveniences I've come to expect in a contemporary binoculars: Twist up eyecups, sufficient eye relief, generous IPD, and a competitive field of view. Since I have yet to bird in a rainstorm, I'm less concerned about a bin being fully waterproof, just reasonably protected in that regard. If the Monarch HG is fully waterproof with its faux-leatherette, that'll work for me....

I would hope that, besides the retro styling appeal, there might be some optical advantages to be gained from a porro system, that would make a modern version of such a design fully competitive to roofs with regards to optical performance, in the areas of transmission, CA control, or something other metric of performance. Even cost of production, as in simpler and cheaper to make. However, from Leica, a less expensive, equally competitive product can not be expected, as it would degrade sales of their current line of goods.

-Bill

Hermann · Feb 1, 2020

wdc said:
My wishlist for a retro reissue, would include a few of the modern conveniences I've come to expect in a contemporary binoculars: Twist up eyecups, sufficient eye relief, generous IPD, and a competitive field of view. Since I have yet to bird in a rainstorm, I'm less concerned about a bin being fully waterproof, just reasonably protected in that regard.

Who *needs* twist up eyecups? I don't. They's make the binoculars bigger and heavier. A "competitive field of view"? Most old porros have a larger field of view than most modern roofs. However, things get complicated once you want eyepieces with long eye relief. Waterproofing? Not really a problem. There were porros with internal focusing, and like I mentioned before, the Zeiss West porros were at least splashproof. The Swarovski Habicht are waterproof.

wdc said:
I would hope that, besides the retro styling appeal, there might be some optical advantages to be gained from a porro system, that would make a modern version of such a design fully competitive to roofs with regards to optical performance, in the areas of transmission, CA control, or something other metric of performance.

A modern porro (modern coatings, modern glass types) will be *better* than a roof, especially any roof with SP-prisms. CA control, for instance, is far more difficult with roofs with internal focusing than with a traditional porro.

And what can be done with a traditional porro becomes clear when you look at a Habicht, for instance the 7x42. Now, that's a construction going back to 1949, and Swarovski never updated the optical design, so it has plenty of disadvantages, mainly the tiny field of view and the stiff focuser. But optically it runs circles around most roofs, with very high contrast, very high resolution in the centre and higher transmission (96%) than any roof.

Hermann

Troubador · Feb 1, 2020

Hermann said:
Who *needs* twist up eyecups? I don't.

Hermann

Lucky you! And there are no doubt millions that don't. But if a bino with decent eye relief is to fit a wide variety of facial structures and spectacle designs and deliver the user's eyes to the right position then multi-position eyecups are necessary if the binos are to appeal to as wide a variety of users as possible.

Lee

John A Roberts · Feb 1, 2020

Hi Hermann (post #16),

Some clarification about the Swarovski Traditional Porros:

Swarovski KG commenced commercial production of binoculars in 1948, at the new purpose built factory at Absam
(WWII military production of ‘cag’ marked 6x30’s had been at the original crystal factory at Wattens; and in 1948 Swarovski commercially marketed reworked cag units marked ‘DWS’)

• in April 1948, commercial 6x30 production commenced, with the 7x42 following later in the year; this initial production was marked ‘SWAROVSKI Absam-Tirol’
(and by observation: while the very first 6x30’s were uncoated, within the first 410 units DV coating was in use; and the earliest 7x42 that I’ve seen, 351 in its sequence was also coated)

• in 1949, Swarovski registered the company Swarovski Optik KG and the brand Habicht, with units from then on marked ‘HABICHT’ (with later variations)

• around 1965, the original eyepiece of the 6x30 and 7x42 with the small convex eye lens, was replaced with the larger eyepiece assembly with the large flat eye lens that’s still in use

• in 1984, the new airtight/ gas filled body with the stiffer focusing was introduced (identifiable by the valve cap screws on the bridge arms), and

• from late 2009, the current ‘paper white’ image along with the very high transmission levels were standard

The significance of 1948 is that it was when the Allies allowed Austria and Germany to recommence production of complex optical devices
- Swarovski had recommenced making glass spectacle blanks immediately after the end of the war in late 1945

As you've previously indicated a fondness for the Habichts, I thought that the above might be of interest
And as always the devil is in the detail - it took me a long while to work out and verify the early stuff

John

Holger Merlitz · Feb 1, 2020

jan van daalen said:
Me too.
AFAIK he is the one who took the initiative for "The Heritage Collection" and is the "architect" of the current Leica museum.

Jan

Outstanding - then Tilman is well familiar with earlier Leitz binoculars. Maybe we could meet for a round table at the IWA together with a Leica representative. I could ask Hans Seeger whether he would like to join (he could take some vintage binoculars from his collection).

Cheers,
Holger

Holger Merlitz · Feb 1, 2020

Omid said:
This is good news Lee! I would absolutely welcome a line of Leica porro-prism binoculars: 8X50, 10X50 etc. similar to the classic Carl Zeiss Jena models! These binoculars could achieve what Nikon WX failed to achieve: being collectible and functional.

-Omid

PS. Holger, I mentioned you to Mr. Albrecht at Shot Show last week. Your name came up in a conversation we were having about Birdforum.

Thank you, Omid, Mr. Albrecht (Koehler I take?) has always been a favorite meeting point for me at the IWA to have a rest, a good coffee and a chat about CZJ binoculars

Cheers,
Holger

'RetroPorro' a Possibility says Leica (1 Viewer)

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