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"Northumberland Honey Buzzard" on video (1 Viewer)

I'm not saying your hobbies aren't genuine. I'm sure you do have several pairs inyour study area. I only doubt that you could identify your photos as definitely being hobbies. They might well be for all I know, but if your pictures are so ambiguous why put them on the website? If the piccys of HB and hobby are not there to support your claims as to their identification what is their purpose? If they are there to support your claims, then I suggest you take some more photos but try to get them to look like the species you say they are! Unless your photos prove your ID then putting them on the website is simply a waste of your time because you cannot convince others that your ID is correct.
 
1. I am sure that Nick has both Hobbies and HB breeding in the N.E. of England. There seems to be enough evidence, both on his site and elsewhere, to support this.

2. Unfortunately, some of the photographs (and the video footage) do not support his claims - they are of too poor a quality or are simply of the wrong species.

3. I too have grave doubts regarding the Hobby photographs; the habitat, time of year and the photographs themselves all lean towards Merlin.

Andy.
 
Andrew Rowlands said:
1. I am sure that Nick has both Hobbies and HB breeding in the N.E. of England. There seems to be enough evidence, both on his site and elsewhere, to support this.

2. Unfortunately, some of the photographs (and the video footage) do not support his claims - they are of too poor a quality or are simply of the wrong species.

3. I too have grave doubts regarding the Hobby photographs; the habitat, time of year and the photographs themselves all lean towards Merlin.

Andy.
Click to expand...
IMO some of the (earlier) photos DO show Hobby, however all of the photos are of a standard where conclusive ID is not possible even after running the pictures through various post-production techniques.

Nick - you need to (manually) set your exposure level before shooting so that you are not underexposing the bird. Try setting your exposure on a tree with the sun behind you and fixing it there or setting your exposure compensation 2 or 3 notches higher - you'll blow out the sky but the bird should at least be clear(er).
 
esmondb said:
IMO some of the (earlier) photos DO show Hobby,
Click to expand...

Hi esmondb,

I assume that you mean Honey Buzzard not Hobby.

Some of the earliest photo's did indeed show HB's. The earliest ones taken in England did not; most were clearly Common Buzzards, a few were indeterminable. The site content has changed many, many times, the latest being in the last few days.

Hey Nick,

I have some of the amateur footage now. I have only looked at one disk; it shows several species so it may be useful. This has come from more than one source and filmed at several sites within Wales. There appears to be some issues with the equipment and methods used but all species are clearly recognisable in the footage that I have looked at. I shall start posting them during the next week, after I have trimmed them to a suitable size for posting.

Andy.
 
stoned curlew said:
Hi Tim,

http://www.nrossiter.supanet.com/hb/northumberlandhb.htm

The Hobby photos are in the Britain/North Sea section under 'Honey Buzzards and Hobbies in Northumberland". The birds appear to be too short-winged for Hobby but it may just be the photographs. Can anyone tell me why they are not Merlins? Nick has claimed fledged juvenile Hobbies in Northumberland on the 20th July, which would put egg laying before the third week of May. If this is correct I think this would be the earliest breeding record for Britain. Unless someone out there knows different!
Click to expand...

If those are Hobbies, I'll show my arse in Woollie's window.
 
It cannot be a serious suggestion that these birds are Merlins. Merlins have a completely different hand shape to Hobby. The hand is shorter than in Hobby and broader with a slightly blunt tip. I accept that with no size comparison in the photo, Peregrine does need eliminating and I've done that in the text on the web site. As for habitat, our most successful Hobby sites are in daleland adjoining the moor. This year the lowland sites were affected badly by the weather but the daleland sites still fledged young. August and September is the best time to see Hobbies in Northumberland as it's when family parties are on the wing, right through to about 25th September.

I should add that some of the locals think I see Hobbies with no effort at all. In 2004 I put in about 400 hours of field-work for all raptor species in the summer, seeing 3 Hobby family parties with possible breeding at another site.

As for HBs, well it's nice to see Andy finally acknowledging that some of the photographs refer to HB. In return I have removed some facetious comments from my web site. I look forward to seeing the Welsh footage.

Cheers … Nick
 
Nick Rossiter said:
As for HBs, well it's nice to see Andy finally acknowledging that some of the photographs refer to HB. In return I have removed some facetious comments from my web site. I look forward to seeing the Welsh footage.
Click to expand...

I think that from the beginning I have said that I believed there were Honeys on your site - the Scottish and I think the Baden Baden or Staufen pics....try reading some of the comments I have made.

Your site is becoming a little more 'user friendly', well done. Perhaps if you had the cojones to ask for some help with your site, you might be able to boast a definitive internet guide to HBs; I'm sure that there are plenty of people who would give help, advice and time to someone who has shown such energy and devotion in trying to explain the pitfalls of id. in this species.

I've seen a lot of Hobbys but never any resembling those on your site.

Regards,

Andy.
 
Nick, the finer points of judging hand size from a still pic is beyond me I'm afraid. They just don't look 'swifty' enough for Hobbies to me, but I couldn't say if the photos show hobby or not. They look a bit like the bird flying over the bird forum logo. What species is that supposed to be? and credit where credit's due, you have managed to do what no other birder in northumberland has managed to do and that's discover HB and Hobby breeding in the county. Perhaps some of the local antipathy is down to jealousy. Both species are very difficult to locate and pin down, so you must be congratulated on a fine peice of field work. Your historical stuff on HB is excellent and there is much to commend your website. BUT, in my opinion your ID for many of the northumbrian HB is dodgy for same reasons which many people have explained in this forum before. surely it wouldn't hurt to acknowledge your ID might be wrong for some of the birds (e.g., the obvious CB's in the Allen valley).
 
Thanks for your comments, Stoned Curlew. Hobbies have a great variety of poses. They can look like Swifts in active flight but some of the ones I show are stalled in a fresh breeze over a hill. Obviously over a few minutes you build up a bigger picture of the appearance and jizz. All the birds shown had white cheeks and moustachial stripe.

I would not claim anything as HB if I thought it were wrong from my complete experience with the actual birds in the field. However, I do think it was wrong to try and lighten some of the earlier photos digitally, such as the Allen birds. This has produced a strange blotched effect to the plumage. A better policy is to put the birds up as taken and let other people play around with them if necessary (this is perhaps a general comment on photographs on the Internet). I have tried over-exposing shots with the camera in the field but the under-lighting is often so poor that the results are bizarre.

To acknowledge the debate I have thought it better to simply cite the Bird Forum threads on the website, provide hyperlinks to them, acknowledge the help of particular individuals and let people look for themselves.

Cheers ... Nick
 
Nick Rossiter said:
I would not claim anything as HB if I thought it were wrong from my complete experience with the actual birds in the field.
Click to expand...
Nick, I think that comment says rather a lot about you. Not even the most accomplished raptor expert would state that their experience was ever complete.
You cannot manipulate so many images of a Hobby and make them look just like a Merlin.
Andy
 
Just happened to stumble on this thread and was intrigued and baffled. Without wanting to get drawn into the personal sniping, I'd just like to point out that most of the putative website Honeys I viewed look like Commons. There are a few exceptions (e.g. the Tampere bird, which indeed is an ad. male HB). Some, admittedly, are indeterminate due to the quality of the photos, though there is nevertheless a suspiciously Common Buzzard-feel to many of the images. Some are demonstrably of Commons, e.g. some of the 'adults' at Staufen. Some of the claimed Hobbies are Peregrines, while the video footage is patently of a Common Buzzard. Bit of a mess!
 
This message gave me a shock! Thought I was back in October 2003. A few very similar postings were made then.

Anyway, welcome Greg. Maybe the mess is in transferring id criteria for HBs from migration watchpoints (not in dispute) to their breeding areas. It would be a great help to the debate if you could elaborate on your statement "suspiciously Common Buzzard-feel to many of the images".

Female Hobby vs male Peregrine is quite difficult to resolve with such certainty from a photograph with no further information. You must be very clever! Which of the photos precisely are Peregrines?

Cheers ... Nick
 
true Me

I have tried to do so on this thread by and large and haven't got involved with some of the handbags stuff as the pix speak for themselves...can't see the point 'debating' anything any further
 
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