Eagle Owls in Yorkshire?? (2 Viewers)

cheshirebirder · Dec 5, 2005

Isurus said:
As a member of the wilderness society/trees for life pointed out at their recent talk in London, given the total failure of proposals to rerelease cute, fluffy, non-dangerous beaver into Scotland, Wolves are looking rather unlikely.

Beavers presumably need undisturbed rivers in wooded areas . We haven't really got any such habitat - all the rivers are in the hands of fishing interests and they are not likely to want beavers , operating as they do , on their rivers. It's sad , but the only way I can see beavers , wolves or even bears being re-introduced is if very .large fenced -in " pens" are constructed , which then becomes a glorified zoo.

Isurus · Dec 5, 2005

Argh! Yes Keith. Although I didn't see the show I presume this refers to some that are enclosed by a very big fence as opposed to ambling about all over the show. A quick google turns up very little information - for those of us that missed it could you fill us in on the project. Is it related to the plans of of the two Pauls (Lister and Van Vlissingen) at Alladale?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1368004_1,00.html

Keith Reeder · Dec 5, 2005

Hi Isurus,

TBH, I don't recall that they gave much in the way of detail - just that there is a decent-sized pack of wolves living "wild" on a reserve (which I assume is fenced!)

The show is on again - on Wednesday I think - so I'll see if I can pay more attention this time and get a better idea of what's going on.

(It does seem likely that it's something to do with that link though...)

Isurus · Dec 5, 2005

will have to see if I can watch/video the repeat. Sounds very interesting.

Amarillo · Dec 5, 2005

cheshirebirder said:
The problem is that we don't have large areas of wilderness left do we ? I know Scotland has large open areas but they are still " farmed" and the wolves would soon come into conflict with domestic livestock. Wouldn't a wolf find a sheep much easier prey than a deer ? It's also interesting that we used to have brown bear and beaver. Has our development of the countryside gone too far for the re-introduction of larger mammals ?

Scotland still has plenty of non-farmed wilderness for wolves - the problem is the landowners, who even object to beavers! If we had government owned national parks, it would be a lot easier.

As for our development of the countryside, farming is no longer lucrative and it is likely that much farmed land will be returned to wilderness in the future. Across much of western europe, large animals are making a comeback and it would be fantastic to see this in Britain.

The establishment of fenced reserves is a positive first step - who knows, maybe some will escape, and reintroduce themselves like the wild boar did ;-)

Jos Stratford · Dec 5, 2005

cheshirebirder said:
Beavers presumably need undisturbed rivers in wooded areas . We haven't really got any such habitat - all the rivers are in the hands of fishing interests and they are not likely to want beavers , operating as they do , on their rivers.

Beavers do not need undisturbed waters, at least out here (where they are abundant). My local patch, a commercial and relatively well-visited fish farm, has a high density of beavers. Additionally, there are other lodges on the edge of the capital city and many others in ditches in farmland. Indeed, it is fairly difficult to find waters in this part of the world without beavers. Also, though obviously trees are the desired need, the rivers do not need to be in wooded areas as such, merely areas with trees.

Mike Pennington · Dec 5, 2005

Jos Stratford said:
Beavers do not need undisturbed waters, at least out here (where they are abundant). My local patch, a commercial and relatively well-visited fish farm, has a high density of beavers. Additionally, there are other lodges on the edge of the capital city and many others in ditches in farmland. Indeed, it is fairly difficult to find waters in this part of the world without beavers. Also, though obviously trees are the desired need, the rivers do not need to be in wooded areas as such, merely areas with trees.

I believe European Beavers have much less environmental impact than their American cousins, but some of the objections to introducing beavers were based on perceptions from Disney True Life Adventures (sic).

Nice Xmas avatar, by the way, Jos! Bah, humbug.

Mike aka 'Scrooge'

Strandman · Dec 6, 2005

Mike Pennington said:
I believe European Beavers have much less environmental impact than their American cousins, but some of the objections to introducing beavers were based on perceptions from Disney True Life Adventures (sic).

it's worth pointing out that some of the mainland European Beaver populations were themselves successfully reintroduced- for example the thriving Polish population may seem like it has been there forever uninterrupted, but derives from reintroduction after WWII and subsequent efforts

Out of curiosity- are yours continuously resident natives or reintroduced natives, Jos?

jurek · Dec 6, 2005

white-back said:
it's worth pointing out that some of the mainland European Beaver populations were themselves successfully reintroduced- for example the thriving Polish population may seem like it has been there forever uninterrupted, but derives from reintroduction after WWII and subsequent efforts

Out of curiosity- are yours continuously resident natives or reintroduced natives, Jos?

I will answer for Jos - almost certainly not. European beavers were almost wiped out by fur trade before beginning of 20.cent and survived in a few very small pockets - Camargue, Woronez in Russia etc. Almost all beavers in Eurasia come from reintroductions.

BTW, you may think it is somewhat artifical. But it is not very different to e.g. red deer. They are seen as wild, but deer in most regions were hunted out and released by hunters or landowners sometime in the past.

Amarillo · Dec 6, 2005

I think possibly the beavers in Lithuania might actually be introduced North American beavers - I know there are populations of them somewhere up that way anyway

Jos Stratford · Dec 6, 2005

Amarillo said:
I think possibly the beavers in Lithuania might actually be introduced North American beavers - I know there are populations of them somewhere up that way anyway

Nothing American about the beavers here - the species we have is European Beaver (Castor fiber). Wiped out in earlier times, the species is now widespread and the stock comes largely from introductions in the 1940s and 1950s, but also beavers came in from from neighbouring Belarus.

Don't know of any populations of American Beavers anywhere in this part of the world.

Amarillo · Dec 6, 2005

Jos Stratford said:
Don't know of any populations of American Beavers anywhere in this part of the world.

Sorry just checked and its Sweden, Finland and Russia which have american beavers - many thousands of them, and spreading south apparently...

so not that far away from you!

Ian Bell · Dec 7, 2005

StevieEvans said:
Hi Jos
Good point, im sure if theres a influx of birders to that area then the birds may be threatened to be " moved on "......
This sort of " veiled threat " seems to keep birders away from the "secret" pair of breeding Golden Eagles in Northern England.

I thought that there was only a single Golden Eagle now left in England ? The BBC run a programme about htis the other day.

barry potter · Dec 7, 2005

Keith Reeder said:
Hi Isurus,

TBH, I don't recall that they gave much in the way of detail - just that there is a decent-sized pack of wolves living "wild" on a reserve (which I assume is fenced!)

The show is on again - on Wednesday I think - so I'll see if I can pay more attention this time and get a better idea of what's going on.

(It does seem likely that it's something to do with that link though...)

kieth can u tell me what channel this programme is on tonight, i have checked my guide and i cant find it
cheers barry :t:

Keith Reeder · Dec 7, 2005

Uuummm...

I think I got it wrong, Barry - I thought that the programme on Sunday would be repeated on Wednesday, but now I think it's 'tother way round - the show tonight will be on again on Sunday...

Sorry about that.

ta brandreth · Dec 7, 2005

Couple of points, I think the wolves are in the Highland Wildlife Park.
Also,if you river system is big enough a beaver population would "manage" it very effectively in ecosystem terms, something which we, with our ancestral tendency to lash all kinds of crap in,dont!!
PS I thought the programme on the Cairngorms was quite poor - didnt seem to know what to do with itself, unlike Mr Attenborough's new magnum opus!!

Mike Pennington · Dec 7, 2005

Amarillo said:
Sorry just checked and its Sweden, Finland and Russia which have american beavers - many thousands of them, and spreading south apparently...

so not that far away from you!

Where is the source for this info?

Jos Stratford · Dec 7, 2005

Yo Mike, from this end, I've never heard of that either - I can be wrong, but I don't think its correct. I think it's all castor fiber. Whatever, they certainly aren't here, as was earlier suggested, and I kind of think stories have got mixed somewhere - C.fiber certainly was reintroduced into many parts, perhaps that's where the story comes from.

Helwith · Dec 8, 2005

matt green said:
i would wonder whether there would be enough gene stock to sustain a healthy population of these owls.
i remember how they had to introduce spanish red kites to improve the blood lines in the first kites to be reintroduced into wales.

matt

"i remember how they had to introduce spanish red kites to improve the blood lines in the first kites to be reintroduced into wales."

No reintroduction occured in Wales did it?

Craven

Strandman · Dec 8, 2005

Jos Stratford said:
Yo Mike, from this end, I've never heard of that either - I can be wrong, but I don't think its correct. I think it's all castor fiber. Whatever, they certainly aren't here, as was earlier suggested, and I kind of think stories have got mixed somewhere - C.fiber certainly was reintroduced into many parts, perhaps that's where the story comes from.

I know a little (teeny) bit about the position in Poland- where some Canadian Beavers were released in the Masurian Lakes in the early days of reintroduction- before these things were done more carefully with the right species/subspecies.

As for Scandinavia- here's an example-

http://www.metla.fi/silvafennica/abs/sa33/sa334247.htm

Eagle Owls in Yorkshire?? (2 Viewers)

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