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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 12:53   #51
Chosun Juan
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It got quite a bit better than that. With the current Bushnell 30% rebate and the Ebay 15-20% off deals the past couple weeks, the Legend M's could be had for about 80 USD. Practically giving them away......
HOLY SMOKES !!!

That is amazing. That has got to be below total business cost (including such things as ongoing funding ROI etc) , perhaps clearing out a large superceded production batch or something? I hope plenty of folk got onto that - would be great for gifting to beginners, family members, conservancy/educational facilities, outreach programs etc .....



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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 13:56   #52
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Yeah that all went through my mind also. I think he could have been embarrassed/ashamed or something but I think his lack of trust in his customers understanding, were he to have come clean, might also have been because he never really was that decent of a guy in relation to his communicating so well with us, but rather was so nice because we were paying customers. That's the usual drill as far as my experience goes. They are your good friend until there's nothing more in it for them. We will likely never know but my cynical nature believes it's likely the latter. He really didn't want to deal with us anymore because there wasn't a monetary payoff. I think his actions speak for themselves. I never think of a person I do business with as a friend. It's just a little game that gets played.

Well, all of this is just supposition, as none of us know how Charles feels. Like I said, I have sympathy for him, but there is zero excuse for leaving all of these customers hanging, with no communication. I hate excuses.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 14:59   #53
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So do I, I usually hate apologies that are not tied to action also. I'm not in my most forgiving mood at the moment because I've just been through another seller situation where I got neglect and broken promises from a binocular seller and then got the same thing in regards to a promised delivery from the Binocular makers warehouse. When I complained about some of the worse service I've ever gotten buying a binocular they tried to make it about me being unreasonable and an angry person. In the end I'm sending the binoculars back (arriving ten days later than a person to person phone promise of delivery) unopened and I bought from from one of my usual sources and a product from a different manufacturer. I couldn't believe how many mistakes and broken promises I got from what should have been a very simple straightforward transaction where great care was taken on my part to insure things would go well. I plan to never own that brand of binocular or buy from that seller because I believe that behavior should never be rewarded even if I have to pay more elsewhere or go without. Fortunately I ended up buying something I think I'll like better at a lower cost. Good for me I say.

To be fair this is not such an unusual situation and goes back to my belief that in business, friendliness is usually feigned to make the sale. This includes promises made to the buyer. When things go south they just want you gone because you never really were important to them outside the sale. I was in sales, I was often friendly to people I didn't care for at all. However I didn't lie and I kept my promises and if I failed due to error I made it right with the customer to the best of my ability. And I never just hung a customer out there without an explanation for what happened. Sometimes I had to suck it up and humble myself for blowing it and admitting that to the customer knowing I'd likely be the target of some anger. Goes with the territory.

I'm not saying that I know this was the situation in this case and yet I cannot but suspect it due to the actions of the person involved. Actions speak loud in my world.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 15:04   #54
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It got quite a bit better than that. With the current Bushnell 30% rebate and the Ebay 15-20% off deals the past couple weeks, the Legend M's could be had for about 80 USD. Practically giving them away.

Good info on the ED3 comparison. Thanks.
on eBay UK 3 to 400 or more for these various seems to be the go! im not in the market yet but for $80 i had to look.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 15:44   #55
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Steve,
Surely the second sentence here is an overstatement? "He introduced binoculars that started the trend of improvement in the upper mid tier. I do not think for a minute we would see things like the Zeiss Terra and Conquest, Nikon Monarch 7 and Monarch HG, the Vortex Razor, or the new Leica Trinovids without the push Zen Ray was involved in starting those few years ago." I believe that Nikon, say, would have got there anyway.

Kammerdeiner, Xlr8nx,
The Bushnell Legend-M is "clones with" the ED3, not the ED2.

Jape,
It may be "heartache, depression, insecurity" but possibly also the inability to cope with a deluge of communication. I wonder why Charles, or whoever there who now has/have the final say, has not arranged for a standard email or recorded phone response to all who contact them.

A few years ago I ordered an ED3 7x43, found problems with it, emailed and phoned Charles. He very kindly agreed to replace it with an 8x43. I am now not sure whether my complaints about the 7x43, of which I had really high expectations, were all valid, but he very courteously took it all. The logistics of the exchange between the US and a distant part of the planet are not easy, but he tolerated it all, and Z-R paid for part of the shipping.

I have been hoping that whatever has happened has not affected Charles too badly and he is well.
Adhoc,

You surely must have not read all of my post, or decided to take that "overstatement" somewhat out of context. I thought I had made it plain there were other companies. Now, to put a point on this I did initially have ZR as the sole focus. I soon realized that was not correct and went back and thought I edited in other companies comments. I missed that one you quoted. I missed that. In point of fact Vortex was probably the original push starter, but like ZR they were not alone.

Now before I get taken out of context again, My post was about Zen Ray's BEGINNINGS. I am as disgusted as anyone else about the way it apparently ended. Please note my support stopped rather abruptly. This was when it became apparent to me they were in for a rough ride. I figured I had done the reviews as I saw them and they had started on a successful note. At that point it was in their responsibility to keep it going. I likely would have reviewed the ZEN ED 4, if it had ever been properly introduced.

Some here have had a giant chip on their shoulder about Zen Ray from the very start and are not reticent about kicking somebody while they are down. Point of fact is we have a bunch of ideas, some are closer to correct than others, some perhaps fantasy.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 15:45   #56
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HOLY SMOKES !!!

That is amazing. That has got to be below total business cost (including such things as ongoing funding ROI etc) , perhaps clearing out a large superceded production batch or something? I hope plenty of folk got onto that - would be great for gifting to beginners, family members, conservancy/educational facilities, outreach programs etc .....



Chosun
I'd guess that when Bushnell discontinued them after only two years, they may have sold out the remaining inventory at wholesale or less. It seems Roger's Sporting Goods got decent sized lot and tossed them up on ebay. I think they've sold over 350 units on Ebay thus far although the sales slowed up when they raised them from $159 to $176 a couple weeks ago. They could have easily sold that many more via their own webstore.

Just yesterday if you paid the $176 on Ebay you'd still get a $53 rebate from Bushnell and then you would have got 15% off the Spring sale price from Ebay. So you'd pay $150 to ebay minus the $53 rebate= $97.

Best $100 bino's on the market bar none. lol.

I'm still amazed at how good the glass is. They can easily compete with Vortex Vipers, Monarch 7's, etc. The only thing I don't care for is the stiff focus wheel. Not so much the mechanism, but feels like the manufacturer used a pretty thick grease.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 15:51   #57
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Adhoc,

You surely must have not read all of my post, or decided to take that "overstatement" somewhat out of context. I thought I had made it plain there were other companies. Now, to put a point on this I did initially have ZR as the sole focus. I soon realized that was not correct and went back and thought I edited in other companies comments. I missed that one you quoted. I missed that. In point of fact Vortex was probably the original push starter, but like ZR they were not alone.

Now before I get taken out of context again, My post was about Zen Ray's BEGINNINGS. I am as disgusted as anyone else about the way it apparently ended. Please note my support stopped rather abruptly. This was when it became apparent to me they were in for a rough ride. I figured I had done the reviews as I saw them and they had started on a successful note. At that point it was in their responsibility to keep it going. I likely would have reviewed the ZEN ED 4, if it had ever been properly introduced.

Some here have had a giant chip on their shoulder about Zen Ray from the very start and are not reticent about kicking somebody while they are down. Point of fact is we have a bunch of ideas, some are closer to correct than others, some perhaps fantasy.

I guess I missed the downfall of Zen Ray threads. I used to lurk here when Zen Ray was the best thing since sliced bread, then I got away from my interest in optics for a bit. I got back into it a year or so ago and couldn't understand how Zen Ray went off the rails so far. Can anyone summarize it in a nutshell for me or link a thread? Cliff's Note's version is fine.

Thanks, Scott.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 15:54   #58
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From what I can tell everything is speculation because the principal player is incommunicado.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 16:04   #59
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I'm fascinated by the love of Zen-Ray (sold Chinese-made bins) but the disdain at other times for...Chinese-made bins.

Caveat Emptor

http://www.buzzfile.com/business/Zen....-503-360-5352

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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 16:57   #60
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Zen-Ray's Portland address on the Buzzfile page is a house in a residential neighborhood.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 17:27   #61
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I'm fascinated by the love of Zen-Ray (sold Chinese-made bins) but the disdain at other times for...Chinese-made bins.

Caveat Emptor

http://www.buzzfile.com/business/Zen....-503-360-5352
This will in all likelihood will conclude my posting in this thread. I simply have said what I wanted to say. I will just use this opportunity to mention that as far as I was concerned, love for Chinese binoculars was never a part of the issue. The issue was what you got versus the price paid. That (the Chinese origin) seemed to be an issue with probably the first anti ZR post and subsequently for a lot of the people who wanted to see Zen Ray fail.

Xlr8n,

Zen Ray's problems are all over the internet. As far as a link goes try this thread, the problems are the topic of concern. For that matter look over the whole recent postings in the ZR subforum here.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 18:31   #62
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Steve, sorry I misunderstood. This is how I had read what you wrote there. By the phrase "the push Zen Ray was involved in starting those few years ago" I thought you meant (no, not Z-R alone but) Z-R and other such companies like Theron and Kruger (post #6, by Nixterdemus). I thought you were saying that without that push Zeiss, Nikon, Vortex and Leica would not have made the models you name. To this I respond that I believe these older cos. would have put out these models about the time they did anyway (without that push). I very much appreciate what Z-R and those other newer cos. did in designing afresh and making available the models they did, do agree that they have encouraged yet other new cos. to follow them, and am mindful that Leupold and Bushnell (cannot recall other cos. right now) "cloned" their models.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 18:52   #63
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I agree Vortex was a trend-setter for sure in the 'good-optics-for-less-than-Euro-prices' market segment, but Zen Ray really pushed the envelope on the actually glass quality of those optics. Aside from maybe the Vortex Razor, nobody had reached the level of optical glass quality that Zen Ray was achieving over the last decade. It seems as though the final fall-off must have been rather recent as the Zen Ray website says they were planning a new webstore in early 2018:

Quote:
Our shopping site is under construction, which will not be able to take any new order. Please check back in early 2018 for new look and function.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 18:54   #64
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This will in all likelihood will conclude my posting in this thread. I simply have said what I wanted to say. I will just use this opportunity to mention that as far as I was concerned, love for Chinese binoculars was never a part of the issue. The issue was what you got versus the price paid. That (the Chinese origin) seemed to be an issue with probably the first anti ZR post and subsequently for a lot of the people who wanted to see Zen Ray fail.

Xlr8n,

Zen Ray's problems are all over the internet. As far as a link goes try this thread, the problems are the topic of concern. For that matter look over the whole recent postings in the ZR subforum here.
Yeah, I'm interested, but not interested enough to wade through multiple threads. I just was hoping somebody in the know could provide a couple sentence run-down of what went wrong.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 20:05   #65
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I must have missed the animosity towards Zen Ray. I thought almost everyone was rooting for them. Seems strange to me that anyone would care where they were made as long as they were good. It's certainly not like they were the only ones using chinese labor.

This gets weirder more I hear about it. I figured they went broke and split for parts unknown. End of story. Not like that doesn't happen all the time either. I don't have a problem discussing all this because I'm not emotionally attached one way or another. Even if my Zens break I have many others to take its place. Sad but not a tragedy. I knew they were a startup company and there was risk. Had not Eagle Optics been owned by the Vortex Optics people I'd be dealing with a similar situation.
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 22:29   #66
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Perterra.

Really? I've been on this forum off and on for a bit and I haven't seen many if any examples of what you are talking about. Let's remember that this company would not answer the phone to respond to customers that they had made promises to. Are they supposed to be happy with that? In my world actions speak more to the truth than what someone has been saying. I would at least have put up a phone message saying something, anything, rather than just ignore everyone and walk away. I never wanted a pound of flesh even though I lost a promised lifetime warranty. I would like to know what happened however. That seems little to ask.
Yep, really!

This is where it would really pay to do the research that folks like Bill (WJC) has been preaching every since I first read one of his post. Know who you are dealing with. Zen was always a shirt pocket company. Three employees and $250,000 a year in revenue tells me there is the possibility it could go south.

Not knowing what happened isnt the end of the world, but I am guessing you have never been hung up in something when vendor/supplier lawsuits start flying. The first thing company attorneys tell you is keep your mouth shut. Dont say a word to anybody.

I'm sure if you owned a company and it folded, creditors took everything, you would cash out your 401K, borrow money from family, and sell everything you own to repay customers. But in todays business world, folks who do that end up living under bridges.

There is nothing weird about it, in 30 years of business I have been stiffed a couple times a year every year. More than likely theres more people other than his customers taking a bath. Nothing personal in my post, just saying this is a lot more common in business to business relationships than many seem to realize
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Old Wednesday 21st March 2018, 22:51   #67
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I think ZR going under is a real shame. At one time they were providing a really excellent product for the price, and were my first "expensive" binocular. They were so FAR above and beyond what I had been using for decades, that I ended up with 2 other models made by them. When the CS took such a breathtaking dive for the worse, I stopped recommending them. Nothing personal, just cause and effect. I definitely don't wish Charles any ill will, these things happen, every day. I'm also glad to have stumbled upon this forum years ago because it is such a great source of information.
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Old Thursday 22nd March 2018, 01:12   #68
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They were my first mid level binocular also and I still have them while a dozen or more other brands have gone bye bye. Even all my Vortex. I loved those first days at Birdforum. I couldn't get enough of all the amazing optical possibilities. I even went bird watching lol.
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Old Thursday 22nd March 2018, 01:26   #69
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Yep, really!

This is where it would really pay to do the research that folks like Bill (WJC) has been preaching every since I first read one of his post. Know who you are dealing with. Zen was always a shirt pocket company. Three employees and $250,000 a year in revenue tells me there is the possibility it could go south.

Not knowing what happened isnt the end of the world, but I am guessing you have never been hung up in something when vendor/supplier lawsuits start flying. The first thing company attorneys tell you is keep your mouth shut. Dont say a word to anybody.

I'm sure if you owned a company and it folded, creditors took everything, you would cash out your 401K, borrow money from family, and sell everything you own to repay customers. But in todays business world, folks who do that end up living under bridges.

There is nothing weird about it, in 30 years of business I have been stiffed a couple times a year every year. More than likely theres more people other than his customers taking a bath. Nothing personal in my post, just saying this is a lot more common in business to business relationships than many seem to realize
I think we are talking about different things. I was saying I didn't see anyone here on this forum wanting a pound of flesh or wishing ZR ill. I don't think it would have cost him or been a legal problem to take phone calls from customers with warranty issues but maybe that's not true. I do know that long long before he and ZR disappeared the customer service was atrocious because I experienced it years ago. No one ever did answer the phone and I finally gave up.

Of course we'll never know why he chose this way of ending things but that just leaves it open to speculation and I can't blame anyone for doing that under the circumstances.

As to what you are talking about, that makes sense and I'm not taking anything you said personally. No worries on that.
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Old Wednesday 28th March 2018, 12:08   #70
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If Zen-Ray is out of business, should not this forum be shut down?

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Old Wednesday 28th March 2018, 12:16   #71
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If Zen-Ray is out of business, should not this forum be shut down?

edj
No Edwin. See Troubador's posts #26 and 28 as Moderator. The BF management have decided to keep it open. It becomes a historical footnote as for other now defunct brands. Zen-Ray may or may not resurrect in some form, but for owners or potential purchasers of the products the sub-forum is still a useful resource.


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Old Wednesday 28th March 2018, 14:50   #72
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No Edwin. See Troubador's posts #26 and 28 as Moderator. The BF management have decided to keep it open. It becomes a historical footnote as for other now defunct brands. Zen-Ray may or may not resurrect in some form, but for owners or potential purchasers of the products the sub-forum is still a useful resource.


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Old Thursday 29th March 2018, 15:58   #73
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Zen-Ray
https://www.manta.com/c/mr5dfpz/zen-ray-optics-llc
is an LLC
https://www.legalzoom.com/knowledge/...bility-company

See posts #11 and #12
http://www.rokslide.com/forums/optic...ay-optics.html
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Old Friday 30th March 2018, 02:02   #74
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I never thought about that part. It's a drag for sure that some people seem to have lost their Zens when sent for repair. I'd be quite angry and disappointed at that.
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Old Thursday 5th April 2018, 19:40   #75
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I've tried bringing up the Zen-Ray site the last couple of days and it has been a no go. What comes up is a page that says Forbidden. Up to this point the home page would display but without functioning links. There was a message saying no orders where being taken while the site was being updated and to check back in early 2018.

http://www.zen-ray.com/

http://www.zen-ray.com/shop/
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