Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Acrocephalidae

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Friday 24th April 2009, 10:34   #1
Markus Lagerqvist
Registered User
 
Markus Lagerqvist's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 197
Acrocephalidae

Hi,

There's a new study on the Acrocephalidae out on Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution.

"Multi-locus phylogeny of the family Acrocephalidae (Aves: Passeriformes) – the traditional taxonomy overthrown."

Does anyone have access or o a copy of the study? Would be interesting to read!
__________________
Latest bird lifer: White-headed Duck (#5,603)
Latest bird family: Donacobius (#215)
Latest mammal lifer: Yellow-tailed Woolly Monkey (#322)
Web page: pbase.com/lagerqvist
Markus Lagerqvist is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 24th April 2009, 10:54   #2
ntbirdman
Registered User
 
ntbirdman's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Montana, USA
Posts: 424
Abstract:

"We present the first study of the warbler family Acrocephalidae based on one mitochondrial and three nuclear DNA loci, in total not, vert, similar2900 bp, including most or all of the species in three (Acrocephalus, Hippolais and Chloropeta) of the four genera and one species in the fourth genus (Nesillas) in this family. All three genera were suggested to be non-monophyletic, although the non-monophyly of Acrocephalus is not fully convincingly demonstrated. Six major clades were found, which agreed largely with the results from two earlier mitochondrial studies, and for which the names Hippolais, Iduna, Acrocephalus, Calamocichla, Notiocichla and Calamodus have been used. However, the results also revealed some new constellations, due to better resolution of deeper nodes and the inclusion of more taxa. The taxonomic implications are discussed."

You can PM me your email for a pdf copy.
ntbirdman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 26th April 2009, 07:55   #3
Daniel Philippe
Registered User
 
Daniel Philippe's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,018
The authors favour 5 genera in this family :

Nesillas (supposedly 5 species including 1 extinct)
Calamonastides (1 species : Chloropeta gracilirostris)
Iduna (7 species : the usual 4 + Acrocephalus (Phragamaticola) aedon, Chloropeta natalensis & C. similis)
Hippolais (the usual 4 species)
Acrocephalus (the remaining species in 3 clades : Calamodus, Notiocichla & Acrocephalus)

But not a word on Scotocerca inquieta ...

Last edited by Daniel Philippe : Sunday 26th April 2009 at 08:30.
Daniel Philippe is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 26th April 2009, 11:00   #4
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe View Post
But not a word on Scotocerca inquieta ...
What's the story here then Daniel?

I thought Scrub Warbler is usually considered a member of the Cisticolidae.

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 26th April 2009, 11:50   #5
Daniel Philippe
Registered User
 
Daniel Philippe's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
What's the story here then Daniel?
http://jboyd.net/Taxo/List21.html#acrocephalidae
Daniel Philippe is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 26th April 2009, 14:11   #6
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
OK, thanks Daniel.

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 30th April 2009, 10:44   #7
Daniel Philippe
Registered User
 
Daniel Philippe's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
I thought Scrub Warbler is usually considered a member of the Cisticolidae.
Just in case someone would like to comment on the tree:

http://www.bio.sdsu.edu/pub/burns/Ba...6Burns2002.pdf

Last edited by Daniel Philippe : Thursday 30th April 2009 at 11:36.
Daniel Philippe is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 30th April 2009, 11:36   #8
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe View Post
Just in case somebody would like to comment the tree...
The tree doesn't include any examples of Prinia. Given that Scotocerca inquieta has sometimes been placed in Prinia, is it possible by extension that Acrocephalidae should also include Prinia? (Or do other studies clearly support the placement of Prinia within Cisticolidae?)

Richard
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 30th April 2009, 13:57   #9
l_raty
laurent raty
 
l_raty's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 3,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe View Post
Just in case someone would like to comment on the tree...
The node that unites Scotocerca to acrocephalids has a ML bootstrap support below 50%, and a Bayesian posterior probability of .70. Nodes with this type of support generally mean close to nothing, I'm afraid. (As a rule, bootstrap support should in any case be above 70%, and Bayesian PP above .95.)

(Additionally, I'd be a little bit cautious about the sequence itself as well. This is the only available sequence of Scotocerca to date, and it was not produced by Barhoum & Burns themselves - they got it from GenBank [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/7381261], where it is the only sequence associated to a paper that, as far as I can judge, never appeared in press. This means that we don't really know how the sequence was obtained, and have no way to assess its quality. GenBank is filled with sequences that have a similar status and, in my experience, these are quite prone to include incorrect data... I'm not saying it's the case for this one, of course - but, still, I'd keep this in mind when assessing the case.)

I've tried to play a bit with the sequence. It clearly is not very close to any (other) published cisticolid cyt-b sequence (including those of Prinia), but it is also pretty distant from all other sylvioid groups. It tends to move around depending on which other taxa I include in the tree - often popping out as distantly basal to the acrocephalids, as in Barhoum & Burn's tree, but I also get it distantly basal to other groups, including in some cases cisticolids, with some combinations of taxa. (I've attached such a tree - I didn't try to assess supports on this one, because the data set is quite large and it would take ages to do on my PC.)

This sequence clearly does not add support to Scotocerca being a cisticolid, but I do not believe either that it can be used to say that it isn't one (at least unless you want to use the data as evidence that it forms a monotypic family). That said, if the sequence is correct, for Scotocerca to be a cisticolid, it would have to be a very basal (divergent) one. In any case, not at all particularly close to any of the Prinia spp. that have been sequenced up to now.

L -

PS - Richard: Yes, there is ample evidence that Prinia is a cisticolid. E.g.: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ympev.2005.05.015, and http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ympev.2006.07.008. (The first one is available from Per Ericson's website, but you have to ask for a username and password to get access.)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf cytb-Scotocerca.pdf (18.0 KB, 234 views)

Last edited by l_raty : Thursday 30th April 2009 at 14:00.
l_raty is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 15th May 2009, 16:18   #10
Acrocephalus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Morocco
Posts: 949
Quote:

"Multi-locus phylogeny of the family Acrocephalidae (Aves: Passeriformes) – the traditional taxonomy overthrown."
Hi everybody,

I have read an article about “Molecular Phylogeny of Palearctic–African Acrocephalus and Hippolais Warblers”, using the method of “Cytochrome b sequences”. It’s quite an old study (1999), but its main conclusions don’t all contradict with traditional taxonomy. Attached is the article in question;
__________________
Mohamed
MaghrebOrnitho blog
.
Acrocephalus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2011, 11:35   #11
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Pacific reed warblers

Cibois, Beadell, Graves, Pasquet, Slikas, Sonsthagen, Thibault & Fleischer 2011. Charting the course of reed-warblers across the Pacific islands. J Biogeogr: in press. [abstract] [supp info]
Quote:
Taxonomic conclusions and perspectives
Results of the phylogenetic analyses indicate that A. luscinius, as currently defined (Dickinson, 2003; Bairlein et al., 2006), is not monophyletic. We suggest recognizing three distinct species in the Mariana Islands: A. luscinius from Guam (the type locality); A. hiwae from Saipan (named in honour of Yamashina's assistant Minori Hiwa and erroneously indicated as A. hivae in Watson et al., 1986); and A. yamashinae from Pagan. The taxon nijoi on Agiguan is probably best treated as a separate species but additional information is needed. Our genetic results also support the recognition of A. rehsei and A. syrinx as distinct species, as suggested earlier by Pratt et al. (1987) based on morphological characters. Although this phylogeny sheds light on the colonization pattern of reed-warblers in the Pacific, the mainland origin of the Pacific clade remains to be fully investigated. This will require the study of the numerous reed-warbler populations in the Indonesian and Melanesian region that have not yet been sampled, as well as additional populations of A. orientalis from Indonesia to Japan.

Last edited by Richard Klim : Tuesday 28th June 2011 at 12:01. Reason: conclusions
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2011, 11:40   #12
chris butterworth
aka The Person Named Above
 
chris butterworth's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wirral / Naha-shi
Posts: 13,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Cibois, Beadell, Graves, Pasquet, Slikas, Sonsthagen, Thibault & Fleischer 2011. Charting the course of reed-warblers across the Pacific islands. J Biogeogr: in press. [abstract] [supp info]
If there is a chance of a pdf I'd appreciate it Richard. It might shed some light on what was 'knocking about' in Micronesia earlier this month.

Chris
__________________
Chris

"Before the internet, this was all fields."
chris butterworth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2011, 13:17   #13
Daniel Philippe
Registered User
 
Daniel Philippe's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
"The taxon nijoi on Agiguan is probably best treated as a separate species but additional information is needed."
Do we know whether this taxon is still extant on this tiny island ?
Daniel Philippe is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2011, 13:31   #14
chris butterworth
aka The Person Named Above
 
chris butterworth's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wirral / Naha-shi
Posts: 13,349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe View Post
Do we know whether this taxon is still extant on this tiny island ?
I didn't manage to get to Agiguan on my trip to the Northern Marianas earlier this month, but no-one on Rota or Saipan mentioned that they were extinct.

Chris
__________________
Chris

"Before the internet, this was all fields."
chris butterworth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2011, 13:36   #15
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Nijoi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe View Post
Do we know whether this taxon is still extant on this tiny island ?
Cibois et al 2011: "Two other extant populations on Alamagan (A. l. luscinius) and Aguijan (A. l. nijoi) in the Mariana Islands have yet to be sampled." [my emphasis]

BLI suggests 1-6 birds(!), but when...?
http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/spe...et.php?id=7611
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2011, 14:14   #16
Daniel Philippe
Registered User
 
Daniel Philippe's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Cibois et al 2011: "Two other extant populations on Alamagan (A. l. luscinius) and Aguijan (A. l. nijoi) in the Mariana Islands have yet to be sampled." [my emphasis]

BLI suggests 1-6 birds(!), but when...?
http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/spe...et.php?id=7611
Thank you Richard, yes I read that, but I think the last sightings were in the 1980's. Not sure whether Alice or other team members got the opportunity to get there since then. It is a very remote place not so easy to get on. In addition goats abound on the island and eat about everything.
Daniel Philippe is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2011, 14:43   #17
Peter Kovalik
Registered User
 
Peter Kovalik's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sp. Hrhov
Posts: 2,940
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Cibois, Beadell, Graves, Pasquet, Slikas, Sonsthagen, Thibault & Fleischer 2011. Charting the course of reed-warblers across the Pacific islands. J Biogeogr: in press.
...Results of the phylogenetic analyses indicate that A. luscinius, as currently defined (Dickinson, 2003; Bairlein et al., 2006), is not monophyletic. We suggest recognizing three distinct species in the Mariana Islands...

And also Acrocephalus astrolabii.
Cibois, A., Thibault, J.-C. & Pasquet, E. (2011) Molecular and morphological analysis of Pacific reed-warbler specimens of dubious origins, including Acrocephalus luscinius astrolabii. Bulletin of the British Ornithologists’ Club, 131, 32–40.
Peter Kovalik is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2011, 15:04   #18
cajanuma
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 442
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris butterworth View Post
If there is a chance of a pdf I'd appreciate it Richard. It might shed some light on what was 'knocking about' in Micronesia earlier this month.

Chris
PM me for a pdf
cajanuma is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2011, 15:11   #19
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Acrocephalus astrolabii

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Kovalik View Post
And also Acrocephalus astrolabii.
Cibois, A., Thibault, J.-C. & Pasquet, E. (2011) Molecular and morphological analysis of Pacific reed-warbler specimens of dubious origins, including Acrocephalus luscinius astrolabii. Bulletin of the British Ornithologists’ Club, 131, 32–40.
Cibois, Thibault & Pasquet 2011 suggests that the two specimens described as A l astrolabii represent an extinct taxon from the Gambier Is - forming a well-supported clade with A percernis and A atyphus (atyphus and astrolabii being sister taxa but with low support).
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2011, 15:44   #20
Papuan birder
- Lost in the Pacific -

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cairns, Australia/Fiji
Posts: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe View Post
Thank you Richard, yes I read that, but I think the last sightings were in the 1980's. Not sure whether Alice or other team members got the opportunity to get there since then. It is a very remote place not so easy to get on. In addition goats abound on the island and eat about everything.
Definitely still present in small numbers on Aguijan in the 1980s as birds were seen there in 1983, 1985 and 1987 with an estimated 20-30 individuals remaining in 1985. The last confirmed record was made in 1994/1995 and I would say that the chances of this population still clinging on is very small, don't believe anyone has surveyed the island in the last 10-15 years though.

Aim currently working with a Canadian guy here on Rota who was part of the expedition that surveyed Aguijan in 1985 and 1987.

EDIT: Would also appreciate a copy if anyone has access.

Last edited by Papuan birder : Tuesday 28th June 2011 at 15:47.
Papuan birder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 28th June 2011, 17:26   #21
mb1848
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Santa Maria, California USA
Posts: 2,061
The 1-6 number comes from Handbook of the Birds of the World: Old world flycatchers to old world warblers v. 13. 2006. This was named for Baron T. Nijoi. http://books.google.com/books?id=vZZ...ed=0CEQQ6AEwBg .
mb1848 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 30th June 2011, 08:03   #22
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
Cibois et al 2011

IOC lists A [luscinius] hiwae Saipan Reed Warbler and A [l] yamashinae Pagan Reed Warbler as proposed splits.
www.worldbirdnames.org/updates-PS.html [updated 29 Jun 2011]
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 3rd July 2011, 09:51   #23
Daniel Philippe
Registered User
 
Daniel Philippe's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,018
A. l. nijoi

Marshall, A. P. et al. NIGHTINGALE REED-WARBLER SURVEYS IN THE MARIANA ARCHIPELAGO. 2011 AOU Meeting in Jacksonville, Florida. Abstract
Daniel Philippe is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 3rd July 2011, 09:57   #24
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 12,792
A. l. nijoi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe View Post
Marshall, A. P. et al. NIGHTINGALE REED-WARBLER SURVEYS IN THE MARIANA ARCHIPELAGO. 2011 AOU Meeting in Jacksonville, Florida. Abstract
Well, that was perfectly timed to answer your earlier question, Daniel!
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 3rd July 2011, 10:32   #25
Daniel Philippe
Registered User
 
Daniel Philippe's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Well, that was perfectly timed to answer your earlier question, Daniel!
Indeed ! I went through the AOU abstracts thanks to your earlier posts and was a bit surprised to come across this one.
Daniel Philippe is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.27739406 seconds with 37 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 03:27.