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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Wednesday 6th February 2019, 12:00   #1451
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To be clear, ZOG = Zionist Occupation Government conspiracy theory.
It also refers to the 'cosmic truthers' who add to the mud of the Internet Sea misinformation. Google 'Planet ZOG Cosmic Truth'...

UK Bird Forum members may recall David Icke's views on this 'subject'...
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Old Wednesday 6th February 2019, 13:59   #1452
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Whilst I am sure there are those in the anti-EMR world who do believe in the literal ZOG theory, ZOG also gets used in a more general sense as to those that belief some unseen actor is manipulating the world.
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Old Wednesday 6th February 2019, 15:45   #1453
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those that belief some unseen actor is manipulating the world.
I always kinda have to wonder if these people are aware of the concept of emergent behavior (or even emergence in general)?
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Old Friday 8th February 2019, 12:03   #1454
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@ Ed Forgot to mention one very good thing that is happening; the WHO/IARC are going to meet to review the carcinogenicity of EMR this spring, and may raise it from the current 2B to a 2A or even a 1. This on the strength of the much-mocked (on this forum) NTP and Ramazzini studies, I understand. I am certainly among those who hope that they will revise the classification upward, but I think there will be tremendous pressure not to do so given the level of investment in 5G. Still, one can hope!
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Old Monday 11th February 2019, 02:53   #1455
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Grim new report on the global insect decline (I note with pleasure that EMR is not even mentioned as a possible cause)—

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...apse-of-nature
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Old Wednesday 13th February 2019, 04:48   #1456
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Something else to consider: LIABILITY!

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Old Wednesday 13th February 2019, 07:07   #1457
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Ah, yet another conspiracy ferreted out by our old friend Principia Scientific (sic).
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Old Wednesday 13th February 2019, 08:19   #1458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkcub View Post
Something else to consider: LIABILITY!

Ed
One can only insure that which can be quantified. There is no case law to support the need to indemnify against this risk, anywhere in the world, so a premium cannot be set.
Also Lloyds is a platform for insurers, it is not an insurer itself, look at https://www.lloyds.com/about-lloyds
An august body that does not seem to peddle hyperbole, such as Pincipa Scientific (sic), should have the resource and wit to fathom the inability to calculate a finite premium on an unknown risk being a significant cause for not offering a protection agains any risk aising, and also that Lloyds is not actually an insurance company.
Sheesh
Bye again
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Old Wednesday 13th February 2019, 19:02   #1459
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and more detail ...
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Old Wednesday 13th February 2019, 19:15   #1460
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Lloyds is an insurance company.

Here's what it insures.
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Old Wednesday 13th February 2019, 19:35   #1461
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Lloyds is an insurance company.

Here's what it insures.
No it isn’t, it’s an underwriter as Hwinbermuda says. His point about risk quantification is also valid and is not exactly rocket science.

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/what-i...-london-462564
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Old Wednesday 13th February 2019, 21:05   #1462
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Lloyd’s of London, generally known simply as Lloyd’s, is an insurance market located in London’s primary financial district, the City of London. Unlike most of its competitors in the industry, it is not a company but rather is a corporate body governed by the Lloyd’s Act of 1871 and subsequent Acts of Parliament. Lloyd’s serves as a partially mutualized marketplace within which multiple financial backers come together to pool and spread risk. These underwriters, or “members”, are a collection of both corporations and private individuals, the latter being traditionally known as “Names”.
One can obtain homeowners, fire, theft, etc. insurance coverage through Lloyd's, for example, Flood Insurance. In fact, in the old days, they were known throughout the world for ensuring commercial vessels at high risk of pirate attacks on the high seas. Nowadays, I guess, they are timider.

The topic is LIABILITY insurance for EMR providers.

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Old Thursday 14th February 2019, 03:19   #1463
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One can obtain homeowners, fire, theft, etc. insurance coverage through Lloyd's, for example, Flood Insurance. In fact, in the old days, they were known throughout the world for ensuring commercial vessels at high risk of pirate attacks on the high seas. Nowadays, I guess, they are timider.
No, as already pointed out to you more than once, LLoyd’s is an underwriter, not an insurer in the first instance. Why this simple (and in the present case) inconsequential fact continues to elude you puzzles me.

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The topic is LIABILITY insurance for EMR providers.
Indeed it is but it’s the reddest of red herrings for the reason already given you by Hwinbermuda. Assuming the fears of EMR-alarmists like yourself prove justified and as things stand, the only available recourse would seem to be through the legal system—lawsuits in other words. Apple, Samsung, Hauwei etc., chip makers, the telecom companies—which between them control God only knows what percentage of world wealth—would be the obvious targets of such suits. Possibly local and national governments, as well. . ..
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Old Thursday 14th February 2019, 04:08   #1464
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Originally Posted by fugl View Post
..... inconsequential fact ..... puzzles me .... Indeed ...... the reddest of red herrings ..... -alarmists like yourself ..... "deniers"
What a rich tapestry you weave ..... makes Walter Mitty look like an Amish community Accountant !





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Old Thursday 14th February 2019, 06:20   #1465
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What a rich tapestry you weave ..... makes Walter Mitty look like an Amish community Accountant !
Mere twaddle like so much of your writing. At least it’s mercifully short this time. . ..
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Old Thursday 14th February 2019, 09:52   #1466
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Point one:
Lloyds is an insurance marketplace, like eBay is an everything marketplace. The people that sell insurance through the Lloyds market are like people selling on eBay. They are not Lloyds per se, but Lloyds vets them and gives customers layers of protection, in the same way that eBay does its sellers and customers.
It is not like Amazon, as Amazon is a seller in its own right as well as a marketplace provider.
Lloyds does not sell insurance it provides a platform upon which potential customers and potential insurers can meet and do business.
The main point of the Principia Scientific paper was based on an incorrect assumption as to what Lloyds is and how it works.
Point two:
The second, but more important point is that a policy of insurance is a policy of indemnification, which puts the policyholder back to the financial position he (or she) was in prior to any event. There has been no quantification of events ergo the policy cannot be written with any real sense, as it is not possible to quantify the risk, and therefore adequately gauge the cost to provide the protection that would be afforded by such a policy.
The policyholder may not be the party injured by the event, but may have an obligation to pay damages to the injured party, hence the need to purchase cover.
There are historically many scenarios that would have fallen into the bracket of not being able to buy insurance cover, until it was possible to know the potential financial impact on the injured party, and through that on the policy holder. One that springs to mind is the failure of silicone implants causing injury to air stewardesses in the 1970s. Until it was known that the injury could occur no one had considered it a risk, hence no insurance was available.
Point three:
Many feel that EMR etc may cause risks and potential injury, but many do not, and based on the ever increasing user base of cell phones and the like, it seems that the second group outweighs the first. Just because some people feel there is a risk, it does not mean that insurance can be provided to give comfort that cover is in place.
Personally I look at various risks and decide if I find them acceptable, acceptable but needing insurance protection or unacceptable to me, and base my decisions on that.
If EMR is the risk being propounded by some, I am astonished they use the electrical devices that cause the issues in their own environment, but they must feel it is an acceptable risk for them to have a cell phone, and use it, or a tablet device and use it etc., without full consideration of the 'supply chain ramifications' of them accepting the risk. This being that they need cell towers to give them a cell signal, the electricity that they use to charge their devices may not be from a carbon neutral source, the materials in components may have been obtained in less than ethical ways and so on.
It’s a risk that I accept in the knowledge that I can re-evaluate my position if compelling evidence is provided. And yes I realise it may be too late to reverse by then, and the global impact may be huge, but then, I live in a house with heating, water and electricity, all of us that do has had an impact on the environment that we deem acceptable.
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Old Thursday 14th February 2019, 11:52   #1467
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@ HWinBermuda How can any insurance company justify insuring people in a world where everyone is forced to be exposed to a 2B carcinogen 24/7 forever? If something is a potential carcinogen there is a risk, yes? So if everyone is forced to to take this risk all the time whether he wants to or not, isn't something wrong?

@ fugl, everyone At least now everyone is starting to admit that there IS an insect decline, and a decline in birds, and in other species. I recall spending half of the last year arguing that species ARE declining while many of you protested that nothing is wrong. So at least we all know now that something is indeed very wrong. As for the Guardian not admitting that EMR is a problem, so far the MSM is not doing that, nor will it as long as telecoms are major advertisers. However, have a look at this:

Could our obsession with mobile technology destroy wildlife? Buglife, 17th May 2019

https://www.buglife.org.uk/news-and-...stroy-wildlife

Personally I think that even Buglife is fluffing it. There are 25,000 studies showing EMR causes harm. Many of those studies use rats, mice, chickens, chicken eggs, quail eggs, etc. as human proxies. If these studies show that animals and/or their eggs and/or their embryos are harmed by EMR, then why wouldn't that apply to wildlife as well as to humans? So if you include all the studies done with animals as proxies, there is massive evidence that EMR harms nature.

So why aren't the nature NGOs targeting wireless? Because Big Wireless got clever and went into partnership with the nature NGOs. As a result, these bodies formed to protect nature are in fact helping the sixth mass extinction on its way--presiding over it, you might say. I wonder how they are going to explain themselves when the penny finally drops, which it will.
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Old Thursday 14th February 2019, 12:11   #1468
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Being cold, @PH, its not for me to justify anyone's decisions, but mine. I was explaining why there was no commercially available insurance.
In view of the lack of comprehension, I expanded my points.
I also stated my personal view on the risks.
I am in no position to posit further.
The rights and wrong of what currently is, is a personal view, based on ones own feelings and understandings, or based on the legitimacy of the actions taken.
I am currently content.
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Old Thursday 14th February 2019, 18:28   #1469
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@ HWinBermuda How can any insurance company justify insuring people in a world where everyone is forced to be exposed to a 2B carcinogen 24/7 forever? If something is a potential carcinogen there is a risk, yes? So if everyone is forced to to take this risk all the time whether he wants to or not, isn't something wrong?

@ fugl, everyone At least now everyone is starting to admit that there IS an insect decline, and a decline in birds, and in other species. I recall spending half of the last year arguing that species ARE declining while many of you protested that nothing is wrong. So at least we all know now that something is indeed very wrong. As for the Guardian not admitting that EMR is a problem, so far the MSM is not doing that, nor will it as long as telecoms are major advertisers. However, have a look at this:

Could our obsession with mobile technology destroy wildlife? Buglife, 17th May 2019

https://www.buglife.org.uk/news-and-...stroy-wildlife

Personally I think that even Buglife is fluffing it. There are 25,000 studies showing EMR causes harm. Many of those studies use rats, mice, chickens, chicken eggs, quail eggs, etc. as human proxies. If these studies show that animals and/or their eggs and/or their embryos are harmed by EMR, then why wouldn't that apply to wildlife as well as to humans? So if you include all the studies done with animals as proxies, there is massive evidence that EMR harms nature.

So why aren't the nature NGOs targeting wireless? Because Big Wireless got clever and went into partnership with the nature NGOs. As a result, these bodies formed to protect nature are in fact helping the sixth mass extinction on its way--presiding over it, you might say. I wonder how they are going to explain themselves when the penny finally drops, which it will.
I don’t recall anyone here denying that the insect decline was taking place. The causation sure but not the fact of the decline.

And 25,000 studies showing harm? Where on earth is that figure from?
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Old Saturday 16th February 2019, 13:50   #1470
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@ fugl It's the commonly accepted figure. Check out https://www.emf-portal.org/en and start counting. Also many new studies coming out all the time.

@ all:

FEATURED: Wireless Industry Confesses: “No Studies Show 5G is Safe”

https://takebackyourpower.net/senate...ing-5g-safety/
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Old Saturday 16th February 2019, 18:24   #1471
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@ fugl It's the commonly accepted figure. Check out https://www.emf-portal.org/en and start counting.
Ok, thanks. . ..
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Old Saturday 16th February 2019, 21:47   #1472
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@ fugl It's the commonly accepted figure. Check out https://www.emf-portal.org/en and start counting. Also many new studies coming out all the time.

@ all:

FEATURED: Wireless Industry Confesses: “No Studies Show 5G is Safe”

https://takebackyourpower.net/senate...ing-5g-safety/


WOW! Absolutely mind-blowing! The blind leading the blind.

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Old Sunday 17th February 2019, 02:34   #1473
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In Power, a new boy on the anti-EMR block. I note that it also has anti-vaccination and anti-“smart meter” wings.
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Old Monday 18th February 2019, 13:29   #1474
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@ fugl Anti-smart meter is part of anti-wireless, since smart meters emit a great deal more EMR than do cell and smart phones, hence are dangerous to live with. They also increase electricity bills and cause fires. As for vaccinations, opinions do vary, but there is a strong argument to be made against vaccinating very small children as some do suffer permanent brain damage. You could say it's only one in a thousand, but what if it's your child?
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Old Monday 18th February 2019, 14:35   #1475
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@ fugl Anti-smart meter is part of anti-wireless, since smart meters emit a great deal more EMR than do cell and smart phones, hence are dangerous to live with. They also increase electricity bills and cause fires. As for vaccinations, opinions do vary, but there is a strong argument to be made against vaccinating very small children as some do suffer permanent brain damage. You could say it's only one in a thousand, but what if it's your child?
I am anti smart meter, but have never considered EMR as part of the reason, its because I don't want the intrusion and collection and collation of personally identifiable information, and I will not allow it on my internet system, and we have no cell phone signals here (looking forward to 2G, then 3G and whoo hoo, who knows what comes after that).
I have seen no substantive data on increased bills, but have seen much on reduced bills; and nothing substantive on them being a fire risk.
I am surprised to see you argue the 'one in a thousand' being more important if its yours.
Emotionally it is, but statistically it is not. Would you force vaccination on all because that one was affected?
Would you blanket ban ALL EMR because one in a thousand was affected?
Would you stop using your car in South London because children in cities show a higher than average amount of asthma? Even if it meant you could not take your dog from Greece to London?
It is all interconnected, and if you have a stance on one thing, its hard to see how you can apparently live with the others.
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