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Wheatear sp. Istria, Romania

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Old Tuesday 25th June 2019, 09:44   #1
Earnest lad
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Wheatear sp. Istria, Romania

Dear forum
Please can anyone advise or confirm that the attached photos is of a Northern Wheatear?
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Old Tuesday 25th June 2019, 11:56   #2
lou salomon
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juv northern, yes.
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Old Wednesday 26th June 2019, 18:32   #3
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Thank you so much.
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Old Thursday 27th June 2019, 16:21   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou salomon View Post
juv northern, yes.
Just out of interest, how are you ruling out Eastern Black-eared?

My gut-feeling is EBW rather than NW.

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/P86C5D/juv...ran-P86C5D.jpg

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Old Thursday 27th June 2019, 16:55   #5
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of course juv wheatears are very similar and an extremely difficult matter. but EBW doesn't breed nearby (closest are at cap kaliakra in bulgaria), while there are at least 4 pairs of northern wheatear nesting in the ruins of histria fortification. ok, now what i found in 3 online-pics of melanoleuca and in shirihai/svensson is a very conspicous white median covert bar in EBW while only a minority of northerns are showing this, usually less conspicous. also structurally - bill looks strong and legs long for EBW.
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 06:39   #6
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but EBW doesn't breed nearby (closest are at cap kaliakra in bulgaria)
Are you sure?

http://datazone.birdlife.org/species...a/distribution

In any case, pure Black-eared Wheatear is a rare species on the Romanian Black Sea coast, so we may never know from these suboptimal images. I personally don't see NW in these...

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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 09:20   #7
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yes i'm sure about the distribution. i worked on the breeding atlas and also know about the most recent records in that well surveyed region. the yellow area in southern romanian dobrogea is wrong. just a few male melanoleuca entered some places and produced hybrids with pied. but i agree the pics are suboptimal and a juv wheatear might not be possible to be identified by them. i'm still convinced it is just a northern - what exactly is it that makes you feel EBW, Brian?
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 09:24   #8
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My first impression on looking at the pics - before reading any comments - was EBEW, though if pressed I definitely wouldn't have excluded Pied or hybrid.
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 09:37   #9
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Originally Posted by lou salomon View Post
yes i'm sure about the distribution. i worked on the breeding atlas and also know about the most recent records in that well surveyed region. the yellow area in southern romanian dobrogea is wrong. just a few male melanoleuca entered some places and produced hybrids with pied. but i agree the pics are suboptimal and a juv wheatear might not be possible to be identified by them. i'm still convinced it is just a northern - what exactly is it that makes you feel EBW, Brian?
Lou, I know juveniles can have shorter wings, but aren't those pp really too short for NW ?
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 09:42   #10
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i don't think so, valery. and it's a bit hard to measure pp exactly, but it looks to be around 100 which is ok for a juv northern. pp is longer than tail projection.
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 10:52   #11
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i don't think so, valery. and it's a bit hard to measure pp exactly, but it looks to be around 100 which is ok for a juv northern. pp is longer than tail projection.
I estimate this pp at about 60% and, generally speaking, falling very short on the tail base. I might be wrong though, photos are... what ? Suboptimal (I like this work ! ).
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 11:03   #12
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I find this an an interesting thread primarily through the knowledge and thoughts of those participating - and all because Earnest Lad couldn’t be bothered to try and ID a juvenile Wheatear.....spp.....for himself

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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 12:12   #13
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I find this an an interesting thread primarily through the knowledge and thoughts of those participating - and all because Earnest Lad couldn’t be bothered to try and ID a juvenile Wheatear.....spp.....for himself

Laurie
Isn't that a little unfair? The OP stated in post #1 he wanted confirmation it was a juvenile Northern Wheatear, ergo he had made a preliminary identification and was seeking expert advice.
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 12:54   #14
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you overlooked the smiley, kb57, which referred to a long discussion on another thread.
valery, here's a juv northern with not fully grown rectrices and primarries, pp about 70% i guess: https://scontent.ffra1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...47&oe=5DC5B4BB
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 13:47   #15
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Thanks Lou
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 16:33   #16
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you overlooked the smiley, kb57, which referred to a long discussion on another thread.
valery, here's a juv northern with not fully grown rectrices and primarries, pp about 70% i guess: https://scontent.ffra1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...47&oe=5DC5B4BB
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Thanks Lou
Wow, that'll teach me for looking at this thread in isolation...still puzzling how an OP without a photo can end up as a critique of 'birding by camera'...(and before I inadvertently kick anything off on this thread, don't shoot, I'm a 'binocs-first' guy!!!)
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 17:35   #17
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of course juv wheatears are very similar and an extremely difficult matter. but EBW doesn't breed nearby (closest are at cap kaliakra in bulgaria), while there are at least 4 pairs of northern wheatear nesting in the ruins of histria fortification. ok, now what i found in 3 online-pics of melanoleuca and in shirihai/svensson is a very conspicous white median covert bar in EBW while only a minority of northerns are showing this, usually less conspicous. also structurally - bill looks strong and legs long for EBW.
Are you sure EBW breeds at Kaliakra, Lou? I only know of Pied there.
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 19:54   #18
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Are you sure EBW breeds at Kaliakra, Lou? I only know of Pied there.
I've often seen EBW in the years 1990 at Kaliakra, including some males breeding with a female pied ; that was a kind of discovery at that time.
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Old Saturday 29th June 2019, 08:57   #19
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Are you sure EBW breeds at Kaliakra, Lou? I only know of Pied there.
well, same as you, andy. i assumed it breeds there because of the (maybe eronously drawn) distribution maps and the presence of 1-2 males i also encountered there (back in 2002). but no, i'm not sure.
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