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Collection of cross-section and cutaway images: All Brands

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Old Thursday 23rd January 2020, 07:44   #1
Holger Merlitz
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Collection of cross-section and cutaway images: All Brands

Dear Friends,

As recently suggested in another thread, it might be great to collect cutaway images of different binoculars, a kind of museum of binoculars technology. I take the honor to post the first example: A Carl Zeiss Jena 8x50 Nobilem Super, produced from 1980 to 1985.

Cheers,
Holger
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Old Thursday 23rd January 2020, 12:53   #2
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Thanks, Holger

I'll continue in the same vein by adding the Nobilem Super's replacement, the CZJ 8x50 Octarem (later renamed Nobilem). The Super's triplet objective has been replaced by a cemented doublet. The most unusual feature in the Octarem is a cemented Porro I prism.

Perhaps we can continue with a few other Carl Zeiss Jena cutaways if anybody has some (John?). From here on I''ll try to gather a few related cutaways of the same brand for each post.

Henry
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Old Thursday 23rd January 2020, 15:20   #3
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Fascinating thread idea, Holger.
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Old Friday 24th January 2020, 01:17   #4
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Nonexpert question: is that cemented triplet in the Super making a shorter tube possible, and did it have drawbacks? Was the same thing done in the Zeiss Oberkochen 10x50 I once had?
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Old Friday 24th January 2020, 01:58   #5
John A Roberts
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Zeiss Porro Prism Binoculars - Cutaway and Cross-Section Images

There are various cutaway and cross-section images of binoculars scattered throughout threads on this site and elsewhere on the net
Recently it was suggested that it would be a good idea to collect and post the images of particular brands together
Holger Merlitz got the ball rolling posting an image of the CZJ 8x50 Nobilem Super (see B) below)


Ongoing commercial production of prism binoculars commenced with Carl Zeiss Jena (aka CZJ) in 1894. Zeiss introduced binoculars using Porro style prisms
(the use of triangular prisms to invert images in optical instruments had been patented by Ignazio Porro back in 1854)

Unsurprisingly, the original optical designs of Zeiss - along with those of many early competitors - differ in detail to later, more refined versions
Zeiss like everyone else was feeling their way with a new technology
What follows are images of later optical patterns - patterns that once refined often continued with only minor variation for several decades
(for contrast I’ll post views of the first pattern models in the next few days)


A) CZJ 8x30 Deltrintem
Two images of post-WWII units have been posted on a number of occasions. The first is from a 1952 CZJ catalogue, and the x-ray image is from Arek at Allbinos
Both can be found in Arek’s highly informative article at: https://www.allbinos.com/170.1-artic...ntem_8x30.html

I have also attached three images of a similar period cutaway Deltrintem from Live Auctioneers at: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...ay-model-c1970

Finally, there is an image of a disassembled Deltrintem by Trancework at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread...eltrintem+8x30
(I did some adjustments to make the details clearer)


B) Larger CZJ Models (x40 and up)
Holger and Henry have posted images of two models:
- 8x50 Nobilem Super
- 8x50 Octarem
The original images and explanatory details are at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=385822

I’ve not found any other actual images of larger CZJ Porros. The closest is a cross-section drawing of a 12x50 Dodecarem from a CZJ catalogue dating from around 1985
It can by found on Holger’s website at: http://www.holgermerlitz.de/czj_85/czj_85.html

While it shows the detail of the objective group, it doesn’t show the details of the eyepiece groups. One would assume that the eyepiece is in a 2, 1, 2, lens configuration
(the first blue 'planar lens’ seems to be an unnecessary addition by the artist - in the same catalogue, the 8x30 image also has the same addition)


C) Post-WWII Oberkochen Designs - not CZJ
For comparison with A) above, see the images showing the 3 patterns of optical construction used on the the new West German Zeiss 8x30’s introduced after WWII
at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=384860 , see posts #5 & 6


D) Information Sources
For those wanting to know more about Zeiss binoculars, there’s a lot of available information. See a recent listing with links at: https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.p...6&postcount=17

Besides the catalogues from the Zeiss Historica Society mentioned in the above:
- Holger has posted copies of CZJ catalogues dating from 1912 to 1985 at: http://www.holgermerlitz.de/binoculars_english.html

- Mark at the Miniature Binoculars website provides the most comprehensive source of older factory literature, and includes additional Zeiss material
see: http://www.miniaturebinoculars.com/part1/Page2725.htm . Use the navigation panel on the right hand side of the page, to go to the 7 pages under Research Materials


John
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Old Friday 24th January 2020, 02:00   #6
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And the rest of the images . . .
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Old Friday 24th January 2020, 07:29   #7
Holger Merlitz
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The objective may look like a cemented triplet, but it is actually an air-spaced doublet. The gap between both lenses is wide enough to generate a telephoto-lens effect, i.e. the principal plane is located in front of the lens and the binocular is thus shortened. Zeiss Jena intentionally copied the design idea of the Oberkochen binoculars and increased the field of view. Albrecht Koehler (http://www.akoehler.de/fernglas/nobilem8x50s/index.htm) reports that the production of this binocular was particularly difficult due to the tight tolerances required for the grinding and centering of the objective lenses. The production costs of this binocular exceeded its retail price (which, as usual in communist GDR, was fixed by the administration) so that the design of the Octarem (being of rather conventional design and easier to make) began almost immediately after introduction of the Nobilem.

Cheers,
Holger
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Old Friday 24th January 2020, 16:01   #8
Canip
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Thank you for this thread, Holger!
I hope we can collect a lot of good stuff from many forum members, stuff that would otherwise be difficult to access.
Canip
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Old Friday 24th January 2020, 16:52   #9
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Looks like we need to reach some consensus about how to organize this effort. Holger has started this thread, but I see that John has also started a brand (and prism type) specific thread on the Zeiss subform. So, do we want a single large thread to include all brands or separate threads for each brand?

Henry
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Old Friday 24th January 2020, 18:33   #10
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Originally Posted by Canip View Post
Thank you for this thread, Holger!
I hope we can collect a lot of good stuff from many forum members, stuff that would otherwise be difficult to access.
Canip
And thanks to Henry for coming up with the idea in the Leica what if thread.

There must be loads of these cutouts in possession of the forum users.
Thanks to all the furue donators too 👍👍👍
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Old Friday 24th January 2020, 18:51   #11
jan van daalen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henry link View Post
Looks like we need to reach some consensus about how to organize this effort. Holger has started this thread, but I see that John has also started a brand (and prism type) specific thread on the Zeiss subform. So, do we want a single large thread to include all brands or separate threads for each brand?

Henry
I would vote for a single large thread that includes all brands.
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Old Friday 24th January 2020, 21:38   #12
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Me too!
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Old Friday 24th January 2020, 23:40   #13
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I'd be very cautious about putting everything in one HUGE thread. I think that there are far more images out there than most realise, especially when images from patents are added

Once people add comments about the images, and then others add additional images and further comments, things are going to get unnecessarily time consuming and difficult to search,
which would tend to defeat the point of the exercise
e.g. even the Swarovski roof prism images that I have collected, when in one thread may be unnecessarily complicated when comments are added

Plus it seems that the larger a thread gets, the greater the tendency to digress and mutate e.g. see the recent Leica 'What If . . .' and 'New Old Trinovid' threads
- who's going to enjoy revisiting them in a few months, to attempt to find something that they think they may remember in one of them?

At a minimum, I'd be strongly inclined to organise threads by the main brands, and then within a brand:
- Porros
- roof prisms
- roof prism range finders
Plus a general thread each for other Porros, other RP's and other RP RF's

More smaller easily navigable collections would seem to be more useful
And there could be an introductory 'thread of threads' which would provide a one stop listing of and links to all of the threads

. . . well that's my 2 cents worth


John
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Old Saturday 25th January 2020, 07:57   #14
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Thanks, John, good food for thought....
I just wonder whether the best would not be if someone would collect all the material and then put it on a dedicated website ??
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Old Saturday 25th January 2020, 08:19   #15
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Ladies and Gentlemen

There are merits in having one thread where images can be compared and comments about optical features found that will apply to more than one brand or design.

At the same time John's warning that this thread could get cumbersome is worth bearing in mind too.

For the moment John's Zeiss images have been moved to this thread and we can all then see how it grows.

If it becomes too big and difficult of access then we can split it later. Google searches should find the images OK.

Lee
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Old Saturday 25th January 2020, 08:50   #16
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I agree - let's first of all dump everything we got together here. This thread will become long, no doubt. After a year or so, we open another meta-thread in which all contributions are nicely sorted (just using the links) after brand, prism-type, year of production and so on.

Lee: Perhaps the title I have chosen was less than ideal. Maybe we replace the reference to CZJ 8x50 Nobilem Super with 'All brands'

Cheers,
Holger
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Old Saturday 25th January 2020, 10:01   #17
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Zeiss Victory 10x56

Here is the 56mm model of the line first called Victory but without any qualifying letters after it such as the FL, HT and SF that followed.

These models featured what Zeiss called their Advanced Optical System which used new types of glass, lead-free and arsenic-free, to achieve thinner centre thicknesses of the lenses and so save weight.

Lee

Correction added later: this was originally titled 8x56 but thanks to Zeiss, Germany is now correctly identified as the 10x56
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Old Saturday 25th January 2020, 10:02   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holger Merlitz View Post
I agree - let's first of all dump everything we got together here. This thread will become long, no doubt. After a year or so, we open another meta-thread in which all contributions are nicely sorted (just using the links) after brand, prism-type, year of production and so on.

Lee: Perhaps the title I have chosen was less than ideal. Maybe we replace the reference to CZJ 8x50 Nobilem Super with 'All brands'

Cheers,
Holger
Done, thank you Holger.

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Old Saturday 25th January 2020, 10:06   #19
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Victory Mk1 40mm

And here is the 40mm version again featuring the Advanced Optics System.

Lee
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Old Saturday 25th January 2020, 11:15   #20
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Dialyt 8x30B

This is the short-bodied version but I believe there were variations other than the long or short bodies so if anyone can provide this info I will enter it here. Thanks to John's Post 24 I can identify the version below as the third version with the dioptre located on the front of the bridge.

Lee
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Old Saturday 25th January 2020, 11:24   #21
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Hi Lee (post #17),

Are you sure that the image is of the 8x56 version of the original Victory/ pre-FL version?

There is a Zeiss image showing 3 generations of 8x56s, including the original Victory - the one that's at the bottom of the image
And a labelled version of the image is included in an article by Walter Besenmatter of Zeiss
see both at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=369170

Note the different eyepieces:
- Besenmatter states that the 8x56 has a total of 10 glasses per side, so a 4 element eyepiece as is shown
- in contrast your image has a 5 element eyepiece

Additionally, your image has a different pattern to the 2nd and 3rd objective lenses

As there were also 10x56 and 12x56 versions of the original Victory, your image is presumedly one of those


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Old Saturday 25th January 2020, 11:31   #22
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Hi Lee (post #17),

Are you sure that the image is of the 8x56 version of the original Victory/ pre-FL version?

There is a Zeiss image showing 3 generations of 8x56’s, including the original Victory - the one that's at the bottom of the image
And a labelled version of the image is included in an article by Walter Besenmatter of Zeiss
see both at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=369170

Note the different eyepieces:
- Besenmatter states that the 8x56 has a total of 10 glasses per side, so a 4 element eyepiece as is shown
- in contrast your image has a 5 element eyepiece

Additionally, your image has a different pattern to the 2nd and 3rd objective lenses

As there were also 10x56 and 12x56 versions of the original Victory, your image is presumedly one of those


John
Hi John

That three-model image has been, I believe, reproduced with incorrect labelling in several places. I have excellent reasons to believe my labelling is correct here. The same source provided an image of the 10x56 and it is exactly the same. I have never seen a cutaway of the 12x and understand this was quite a rarity but it is entirely possible this differed optically from the 8x and 10x.

Lee
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Old Saturday 25th January 2020, 11:37   #23
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Victory FL 8x56 and 8/10x42

The big FL: Henry's favourite in the drawing and the cutaway model is the 42mm. With thanks to Henry.

Lee
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Old Saturday 25th January 2020, 11:37   #24
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Dialyt 8x30B

Hi again Lee (post #20),

I've discussed the 3 versions in some detail, and provided images including a cross-section of the 2nd version
see post # 8 and on at: https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=378377


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Old Saturday 25th January 2020, 13:48   #25
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In some cases we may find it impossible to precisely identify different models in a series. I have a Zeiss brochure showing what appears to be a photo of an actual sliced 56mm Victory (I'll post later). It's labeled 8x56 and has the 5 element eyepiece. To me it seems more likely that the 4 element eyepiece was used on the 8x56 with the narrowest AFOV and the 5 element on the 10x56 and 12x56, although I suppose the 10x could have used either.

Also the green binocular in Lee's post # 23 is one of the 42mm FLs, not a 56mm. The 7x can be eliminated by the objective barrel length, but we can't tell whether it's the 8x or 10x.

Anybody know for sure whether the focusing lens shown in the 8x56 FL cutaway is a doublet or a strangely thick singlet and whether the field lens of the eyepiece is a doublet or singlet? I've closely perused that image for years without being sure.

Henry

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