Birdspotter
Well-known member
:clap:
:clap::clap::clap:
:clap::clap::clap:
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Scottish Independence (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Andy Stoddart
- Start date
wheatearlp
Well-known member
On the subject of lists, presumably individual birders will maintain lists based on their own preferred criteria.
After all it's what we do with patch-lists, an (often) random area chosen by whatever whim was passing at the time - and possibly expanded a bit here and there to be able to include good birds seen outside the previously chosen area if it's no viewable from the original patch
From a personal point of view I'll continue with a British Isles list, although it doesn't contain anything from the island of Ireland (and its associated off-shore islands and islets) for the simple reason I've never been there to bird or twitch.
Mike
After all it's what we do with patch-lists, an (often) random area chosen by whatever whim was passing at the time - and possibly expanded a bit here and there to be able to include good birds seen outside the previously chosen area if it's no viewable from the original patch
From a personal point of view I'll continue with a British Isles list, although it doesn't contain anything from the island of Ireland (and its associated off-shore islands and islets) for the simple reason I've never been there to bird or twitch.
Mike
AlfArbuthnot
Well-known member
When the three major parties and the Governor of the Bank of England (i.e the regulator and backer) say that there categorically wont be a currency union, that sounds like a non-negotiable position statement. But when Salmond says 'yes there will', does that sound like a reasonable plan?
After a Yes vote it's no longer 'for the people of Scotland to decide', the rest of the UK becomes involved in the talks, and with a General Election in 2015 the rest of the UK finally has a voice in all this. And their representatives have said that a formal currency union is not on the table, as has the Bank of England. Salmond's argument is basically that he thinks he'll change their minds - that's a big if for the people to vote on, and what if he doesn't change their minds? What's the plan then? This hasn't been spelt out to the voters.
AlfArbuthnot
Well-known member
Do you know how offensive many people find this sort of 'us people and those people' divisive garbage that Scottish Nationalists spout? They talk like English people are some kind of lumpen Home Counties voting block, whereas Scottish people are a united tribe with a social conscience. Scotland is diverse (with much of it still owned by an aristocracy with ghillies in your socially-thinking utopia), and around half of them are currently not supporting the SNP Dream (the No vote), so please hold off on the sentient socialism claptrap. Sucking up to Donald Trump at the expense of the national heritage doesn't seem like a 'socially thinking nation' to me - at least in Medway it's the local council wanting to trash a nightingale SSSI for housing, not American leisurebucks.
England is equally diverse as Scotland, and Cornwall is as different from London as Yorkshire is from Kent, and Northumberland from Gloucestershire. There's 50 million people - a quick look at the constituencies and councils tells the ignorant CyberNat that talk of 'The English' as a 'them' is as ridiculous as the assumption that Russ Abbott nailed the 'The Scots' with CU Jimmy.
For people representing 8.3 million who will be wanting to try and negotiate a currency union and division of financial and military institutions with people representing 55 million who will be voting in 2015, patriotism donning the cloak of racism is not very clever. People are people, and should not be stereotyped.
Last edited:
CornishExile
rydhsys rag Kernow lemmyn!
With a local economy worth £1.1bn per annum (latest analysis, in 2011), all of that oil and gas (50+ year's worth east and west of Shetland), immense renewable energy generation potential, and rich fishing grounds - you're right Alan, Shetland's uniquely blessed in Scotland with opportunity.
Not sure, however, how much appetite there is here to change the status quo...
It's an intriguing thought though. Some sort of ability to offer offshore banking, tax incentives... allied to all the existing and soon-to-be-realised opportunities already listed... and some more leftfield options like secure server hosting... could be lucrative.
The Falkland Islands have sent delegates here already to see how we do it. (And little wonder David Cameron chose Shetland of all the rural areas of Scotland for a 2 day visit earlier this summer...) Maybe Shetland should be looking to the Channel Isles and Switzerland for some pointers!
ce
Scotland owns a share of the Bank of England, the MOD and its assets and every thing else thats to be discussed post YES. It could all be sold back to England or anyone daft enough to buy it, it isn't English its British. So all your scaremongering is not going to work. Westminster still thinks its a major player in a global setting. You just need to look as far as Brussels to realise what the EU think, an organisation that would make sure any transition to an indy Scotland staying members would be as fast and as smooth as possible.
AlfArbuthnot
Well-known member
But what are the chances of the SNP especially (or whoever runs an independent Scotland) giving Shetland a referendum, as the UK has for Scotland?
I can see vast areas of England that have been badly treated by Westminster also wanting changes from the centralist was of thinking.
Maybe if they actually cared about places north of the Watford Gap there would not be any need for independence. But the majority north of the border want different things than Westminster, independence aside, there are more Giant Pandas in Scotland than Conservative MPs. We as a people are fundamentally different in our political leanings to the central powerhouse of southern England. Its not "divisive garbage" but rather a legitimate point of view. Something that has not been listened to by Westminster and their supporters. Your opions differ from mine, but according to you, what you say is correct and I say is devisive garbage. That is what Scotland has heard from this Union for over 300 years.
If they get a mandate for the vote in the Scottish Parliament, then they have the same right to ask its people to go it alone as Scotland had and has done.
DMW
Well-known member
That is the opposite of what senior EU officials and lawyers have stated as being the actual legal position. They have advised that Scotland will not automatically be grandfathered into the EU, and will have to apply to join. Application for new membership requires a unanimous vote from all members, and the Spanish government has stated that it will veto a Scottish membership application.
Whether this will actually happen or not is unknown, but your assertion is one of many examples of the glib and baseless assumptions the Yes campaign peddles as fact if it suits their argument. You don't know how the EU will react, nor do I, and nor does Alex Salmond.
CornishExile
rydhsys rag Kernow lemmyn!
As I originally said, I think there's little appetite here to ask for one. A few people stir things up and speculate, but by and large we're happy just being Shetland and counting our blessings. Virtually no unemployment, superb schools and healthcare, high quality of life all round, hardly any crime... and some terrific birding for those of us who care about such things!
Let's be honest with ourselves- no national government, be it British or Scottish, is going to willingly give up the abundant oil and gas and renewable and fishing resources Shetland theoretically 'posseses' in our waters. Little point asking, were there any desire to do so in the first place.
ce
AlfArbuthnot
Well-known member
So people on the Western Isles, Shetland, Aberdeenshire, and Dumfries are the same (politically and socially) as each other and as those in Glasgow, Berwickshire, and Argyll? Glasgow is fundamentally different in attitude to Edinburgh (just ask them!), so where you get this idea of 'a people' that is more similar to each other (politically and socially) but fundmentally different from every region of England is quite bizarre.
So lets see how disenfranchised Scotland has been from the 'Westminster Elite', by looking at political party leaders and their origins for the last 20 years:
Cameron - Scottish-English (Scottish father)
Clegg - English-Dutch
Miliband - Belgian-Polish-English
Gordon Brown - Scottish
Menzies Campbell - Scottish
Charles Kennedy - Scottish
Tony Blair - Scottish
Michael Howard - Welsh
Ian Duncan Smith - Scottish
John Smith - Scottish
Paddy Ashdown - born in India, brought up in Northern Ireland, mixed British family
And so on...
Hardly a roll call of English tyrants, is it? These are party leaders and Prime Ministers with Scottish families and Scottish constituencies. Products of Scotland - those people you think are fundamentally different from 'Westminster and its supporters'. They're the same people as you, and me.
Last edited:
lewis20126
Well-known member
Hers's a thing - perhaps the UK parliament could give Shetland a referendum on its own independence prior to dissolution of the UK!- surely Salmond would have to then obliged to respect that vote or offer Shetland lavish inducements to stay?
cheers, a
Farnboro John
Well-known member
I think you are probably wrong about that, Paul: even if birders have ticked birds in Shetland, the ones that are real birders rather than listers will have been for another closer since. Probably most of the birders on 530+ in UK/British Isles will have a 500+ English list, just as I have. I don't know how many that is, but I would be surprised if there are less than 100 in front of me these days.
John
lewis20126
Well-known member
hmmm, surely the real birders would be birding locally, trying to find things rather than travelling what might be a long way in England for "another rare bird" found by someone else? I know in general I'd rather bird locally than collect another of something I've seen before - unless it is an individual rarity which has a special appeal (eg Great Snipe - Spurn).
cheers, alan
cheshirebirder
Well-known member
Cheerio.
AlfArbuthnot
Well-known member
Rarities aside, what are the regular breeders/winterers that would have been impossible in England in the last 40/50 years? Capercaillie and Scottish Crossbill definitely (though I wonder if the latter could actually be found/claimed if someone looked hard enough), but haven't there been one or two continental Crested Tits?
Richard Prior
Halfway up an Alp
Not if you marinate it in a robust red wine for 5 days before roasting!
Nice to see the thread back on birds instead of more trivial matters
Farnboro John
Well-known member
I believe there was an attempt to introduce Capercaillie to Cannock Chase at some point, presumably they didn't take!
I know of one unrecorded Crested Tit, which attended a mate's feeder in Farnborough (Hampshire) for a few days after the October 1987 not-the-hurricane. I'm not sure if I could have got it as I was on Scilly during the episode but obviously back about a week later. The household belongs to that great category of British families that feed the birds and enjoy seeing them but aren't in any way birders, so by the time they thought to mention it to me it was far too late!
Despite the lack of evidence I was and remain confident of the ID. Sadly the main observer, my mate's younger brother, was taken from us at 21 by lung cancer (he smoked heavily). Shocking waste.
John
