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Norfolk birding (19 Viewers)

How can this be right?

I'm a bit cautious about highlighting this as it may be adding to the problem to bring it to others attention, but I do really think its time some moral standards were observed:

Mark Batten said:
... Good to see tour guides putting video footage on utube? Particularly as there is enough of the surrounding area in the clip to assist with identiflying the location, given a bit of local knowledge. ...
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There is no need for local knowledge when the tour company in question has named the site, (with a video-link to the youtube footage) in a 'Norfolk Rare Breeders' report on their website from a week ago. The location is readily identifiable!

I may be in a minority of one here, but I fail to see any other reason for being so 'careless' with such delicate information than personal financial gain. I see that as both immoral and unacceptable, and I'm surprised its actually lawful. If it is.
 
The simple fact is that birders come to Norfolk to see good birds. If they choose to use a tourguide they have paid for a service, end of argument. Imagine the coversation punter to tour leader "I would like to see this species that I have never seen before that breeds here". Tour leader to punter "I can not take you as. I have taken the secret oath under pain of death not to tell anyone!" Get real, tour guides have to make a living.
 
willowgrouse said:
I may be in a minority of one here, but I fail to see any other reason for being so 'careless' with such delicate information than personal financial gain. I see that as both immoral and unacceptable, and I'm surprised its actually lawful. If it is.
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I couldn't agree more. The idea of putting the bird’s welfare first seems to go out of the window when it comes to rare breeders, particularly when it comes to this species. I believe you need a licence for photographing Schedule 1 species at their nesting sites; I'd be interested to hear if this applies to video footage. If so I may be worth an email to the relevant conservation body so that charges can be brought against individuals breaking the law. I hear N.E. are currently in the process of prosecuting one well know photographer who has a reputation for invasive techniques. Fingers crossed for an appropriate outcome!
 
In for the duration.

A desperado has camped out on the East Bank with lounge chair and sustinence a plenty in order to nail the bluethroat - comments were, "This is my fourth attempt ."

As an aside I hear that our fellow BF member Tideliner is unwell - I'm sure we all wish him well and a speedy recovery. Pat
 
dwatsonbirder said:
I couldn't agree more. The idea of putting the bird’s welfare first seems to go out of the window when it comes to rare breeders, particularly when it comes to this species. I believe you need a licence for photographing Schedule 1 species at their nesting sites; I'd be interested to hear if this applies to video footage. If so I may be worth an email to the relevant conservation body so that charges can be brought against individuals breaking the law. I hear N.E. are currently in the process of prosecuting one well know photographer who has a reputation for invasive techniques. Fingers crossed for an appropriate outcome!
Click to expand...

A simple solution to a complex problem. I would agree that putting video clips on the net is perhaps a little unwise. I would also agree that those who disturb rare breeders to get photo's deserve little sympathy should inspector knacker knock at the door.

That said raptor politics is a little more complex. The elimination of Hen Harrier as a breeding in England is the fault of none of the above! What are NE doing about this?

If we look at the site in question in this case, it was on a shooting estate with a footpath running through the area concerned.

The pragmatic solution would have been to close down the footpath for the breeding season. This would require the permission of the landowner.

As for managing information, it was always a matter of time before information got out, which is exactly what happened in this case.

The pragmatic solution would be a managed watchpoint set up by organisations such as the RSPB taking the lead? It is not that they are not short of a bob or two!

Always been of the opinion (I know others disagree) that it is always best to have one well managed location at which birders can view rare breeders from a safe distance? It requires a bit of planning, but there are plenty of examples of it working well. It also stops lots of visitors wandering around the countryside and disturbing birds at other sites.

The fact remains that birders visiting the county want to see these birds and will try to do so every spring. Tour guides earn a living out of showing visitors birds. The problem with this species will present itself every spring for the forseeable future.

Not looking for a argument, just looking for a solution to keep everybody happy. I do of course acknowledge that a solution is probably unworkable in the current climate and legislation;)
 
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Mark Batten said:
A simple solution to a complex problem. I would agree that putting video clips on the net is perhaps a little unwise. I would also agree that those who disturb rare breeders to get photo's deserve little sympathy should inspector knacker knock at the door.

That said raptor politics is a little more complex. The elimination of Hen Harrier as a breeding in England is the fault of none of the above! What are NE doing about this?

If we look at the site in question in this case, it was on a shooting estate with a footpath running through the area concerned.

The pragmatic solution would have been to close down the footpath for the breeding season. This would require the permission of the landowner.

As for managing information, it was always a matter of time before information got out, which is exactly what happened in this case.

The pragmatic solution would be a managed watchpoint set up by organisations such as the RSPB taking the lead? It is not that they are not short of a bob or two!

Always been of the opinion (I know other disagree) that it is always best to have one well managed location at which birders can view rare breeders from a safe distance? It requires a bit of planning, but there are plenty of examples of it working well. It also stops lots of visitors wandering around the countryside and disturbing birds at other sites.

The fact remains that birders visiting the county want to see these birds and will try to do so every spring. Tour guides earn a living out of showing visitors birds. The problem with this species will present itself every spring for the forseeable future.

Not looking for a argument, just looking for a solution to keep everybody happy. I do of course acknowledge that a solution is probably unworkable in the current climate and legislation;)
Click to expand...

Totally agree, Mark.

In an ideal world these birds would be left alone but human nature (especially birders!) will mean that disturbance will occur, either accidently or on purpose.
Tour guides are of course going to cash in on something like this, it happens in Spain a great deal as well sadly (Bald Ibis etc).

RSPB REALLY should have got their act together on this. The birds have been present for long enough (this year and in previous years at sites in the area) to set up a watchpoint of sorts.

The current location makes it tricky to police such an area, especially given the nature of the owners of the land, but the area should have been closed off instantly.

As for those videos on Youtube, don't get me started.....
 
O.Reville1989 said:
Totally agree, Mark.

In an ideal world these birds would be left alone but human nature (especially birders!) will mean that disturbance will occur, either accidently or on purpose.
Tour guides are of course going to cash in on something like this, it happens in Spain a great deal as well sadly (Bald Ibis etc).

RSPB REALLY should have got their act together on this. The birds have been present for long enough (this year and in previous years at sites in the area) to set up a watchpoint of sorts.

The current location makes it tricky to police such an area, especially given the nature of the owners of the land, but the area should have been closed off instantly.
Click to expand...

Well a barbed wire fence has appeared in one location that wasn't there a week ago :) However, I think the legal situation regarding closing public rights of way (e.g. footpaths) requires a lot more than just the land owner's say so.

But while we are all throwing blame and refusing to name the place or the species, let's remember that if I'm assuming correctly which site and species we are talking about, the site has been published in at least one printed 'Bird Finding' guidebook available from Amazon, as well as numerous articles on the internet (just google for the species and the name of the nearest village to their usual nest site and you will see that this is so).
 
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O.Reville1989 said:
Totally agree, Mark.

In an ideal world these birds would be left alone but human nature (especially birders!) will mean that disturbance will occur, either accidently or on purpose.
Tour guides are of course going to cash in on something like this, it happens in Spain a great deal as well sadly (Bald Ibis etc).

RSPB REALLY should have got their act together on this. The birds have been present for long enough (this year and in previous years at sites in the area) to set up a watchpoint of sorts.

The current location makes it tricky to police such an area, especially given the nature of the owners of the land, but the area should have been closed off instantly.

As for those videos on Youtube, don't get me started.....
Click to expand...

Mr. Reville raises a very good point - just what are the Royal Society for the PROTECTION of Birds (clue in the title) doing about this? Personally, I'd prefer that my subscription went towards overseeing endangered species breeding sites rather than funding not-fit-for-purpose hides in flagship reserves (sorry Paul).
Perhaps Paul Elle might wish to comment, or else ask someone in the RSPB's management to do so?
 
Derek Pickering said:
I'd prefer that my subscription went towards overseeing endangered species breeding sites rather than funding not-fit-for-purpose hides in flagship reserves
Click to expand...

Hear hear.

I don't go to Titchwell anymore because seeing the monstrous "hide" spoiling the view and destroying the sense of openness and wildness makes me angry. I consider resigning from the RSPB every time I see it. I haven't got round to it yet because I still have some hope that my subscription pays for conservation not just architects and builders fees.

If anymore monstrosities like that spring up elsewhere I shall leave for sure.
 
Ive just got home from a week's holiday and birding in Broadland. Birding was good all week but just a couple of queries:

On Sunday 2nd June a walk across Halvergate marshes produced two immature/juvenile Peregrines which were in the area for over an hour constantly harassing the Lapwings and Woodpigeons; one of the latter eventually fell prey after a short chase.
Without giving too much info out where might the birds have originated from?

Only having the basic Birdguides app on my phone I wasn't able to find out where the Breydon Red-backed Shrike was seen, though earlier in the day I had been birding at the Burgh Castle end and no one had said anything. Anyone know where it was?

I spent a few hours on Winterton dunes on Wednesday evening and only heard one churring Nightjar. Any idea what sort of population there is over there this year?
 
85 'Tundra' Ringed Plovers along with good numbers of Dunlin and a very smart adult Little Stint on North Scrape, Cley this evening. It felt like a cold winter's day – you would never have thought it was June!

Full update on blog.

Penny:girl:
 
Boogieshrew said:
Hear hear.

I don't go to Titchwell anymore because seeing the monstrous "hide" spoiling the view and destroying the sense of openness and wildness makes me angry. I consider resigning from the RSPB every time I see it. I haven't got round to it yet because I still have some hope that my subscription pays for conservation not just architects and builders fees.

If anymore monstrosities like that spring up elsewhere I shall leave for sure.
Click to expand...

Bird hides should blend info the landscape. The Daukes complex at Cley are just superb. The person responsible should get an award. The hide at RSPB Rainham is also excellent. As for the hide you refer to above it best reminds me of a 1960's shopping complex on a council estate! . I do think it would be better suited to accomodating Greggs, a kebab shop and a hairdressing salon rather than birders! Sorry no awards;) Good to know I am not alone on my thoughts on probably one the most expensive bird hides ever built;)
 
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However, if you are talking about the bird / location I think you are talking about, I am always surprised that there has been no arrangement for a presence on the ground by one of the wildlife groups; this site has been (widely) known about for several years with some degree of parking provision available.
 
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Phil Andrews said:
However, if you are talking about the bird / location I think you are talking about, I am always surprised that there has been no arrangement for a presence on the ground by one of the wildlife groups; this site has been (widely) known about for several years with some degree of parking provision available.
Click to expand...

It is the bird Phil, but at a different site. News travels fast these days, and that is not always a good thing. I agree that the establishment of a watch point was actually feasible at the site, but sadly no conservation bodies took the steps to make this possible.
As a result we now have a sensitive site, with high levels of disturbance. The closure of an adjacent public footpath would have taken some of the pressure off, but proper policing of the site would have led to the species breeding (successfully?) at the site. I am led to believe that this is no longer the case as the birds have not been present for over 5 days.
I hope those who have visited the site with birding groups or those who have walked the footpath to take invasive photographs are aware of the repercussions of their actions, and feel responsible for the loss of one pair of these amazing raptors. Suppression all the way.
 
dwatsonbirder said:
It is the bird Phil, but at a different site. News travels fast these days, and that is not always a good thing. I agree that the establishment of a watch point was actually feasible at the site, but sadly no conservation bodies took the steps to make this possible.
As a result we now have a sensitive site, with high levels of disturbance. The closure of an adjacent public footpath would have taken some of the pressure off, but proper policing of the site would have led to the species breeding (successfully?) at the site. I am led to believe that this is no longer the case as the birds have not been present for over 5 days.
I hope those who have visited the site with birding groups or those who have walked the footpath to take invasive photographs are aware of the repercussions of their actions, and feel responsible for the loss of one pair of these amazing raptors. Suppression all the way.
Click to expand...

Wouldnt disagree in any way but why post the above quote which can easily be put into a search engine to fill in the ***s?
 
A little unfair to suggest birders responsible for the problems at this site. The locality presents problems that are nothing to do with birders. Agree that a managed viewing areas early doors would have prevented birders following the footpath and possibly causing disturbance. As for keeping stuff secret, these kinds of secrets very rarely remain so for long.
 
That is correct Phil, I can't recall when, but it was a few years ago now. The site in Lincs was successful a couple of years ago, well managed by the RSPB and with no disturbance to the birds. Fingers crossed for other pairs! Mark, not suggesting birders are solely to blame (I heard rumour of a local fox being partially responsible), but the dissemination of sensitive information and the disturbance caused certainly plays a part. There are also the moral and legal issues involved, but I am neither a philosopher nor a solicitor, just a mere ecologist.
 
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