Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Zeiss - Always on the lookout for something special – Shop now

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

AGW and rising sea levels

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Sunday 29th September 2019, 13:09   #726
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 6,273
Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by poledark View Post
Does anyone here know the amount of CO2 absorbed by an acre of grass grown for sheep or cattle? And what happens to that Co2 when the grass is eaten. I am surrounded by thousands and thousands of acres of quite intensively farmed land (SE Kent UK ) Hedgerows/woods/small copses/every type of C02 absorbing crop.

Even a week or so after being harvested the fields start to green up (absorbing C02 ?) or have I got it wrong?
Most of this land was at one time all forest but centuries of intensive management has produced a very healthy environment for plants and animals, the rate at which some crops and grass grows has to be seen to appreciate the fertility of the land.

I also understand that all this "green stuff" produces Oxygen which I rely on to exist so is there a balance for good or bad for me as an eater of meat and veg?

Trying to put it more simply, do 30 cows produce more CO2 than the 30 acres of grass they graze absorb?

By the way, I do believe in climate change.

Den
Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
In isolation, if the cows are fed solely from the grass, there is a balance, because they cannot emit more carbon than they take in.
In the macro, it is quite possible to farm in a carbon friendly manner, even with primitive methods.
The Amazon was once a garden for millions, with an ongoing soil improvement effort based on charcoaling vegetation and using that plus midden materials to enrich the soil. The large areas called Terra Preta reflect these centuries of human activity. The plagues brought about by the European invasion exterminated the locals and let the garden run wild, but the fruit and nut trees are still there. The current day ranching methods are short sighted, because the rains leach out the nutrients quickly, leaving impoverished soil. The earlier inhabitants did better, they left a richer place than before.
When grass is grazed by animals a proportion of the roots die off and the carbon is absorbed into the soil. This is a complex relationship involving fixed, mineralized, available, and mobile carbon. There is an optimum range for the grass to be grazed whilst retaining relevant amounts of ground cover. There is also the addition of organic matter in the form of waste and trampled vegetation etc. I'm pretty sure I may have posted a link to a simple schematic in the relevant threads.

As the grass regrows in the presence of moisture (largely in the soil) and sunlight you get the green growth you observed and a corresponding growth in the root mass which draws CO2 out of the atmosphere. This process works best in biologically biodiverse environments no matter what the particular vegetation type. It relies on a whole host of symbiotic relationships such as fungi and other organisms and other biochemical process such as nitrogen fixing by legumes, etc and the rhizome interface is a key circuit for turbocharging the whole web of life.

Etudiant is right in saying that some set stocking methods degrade the system long term and essential minerals are lost below the root zone unable to be accessed (such lands will often be subject to 'weeds' as the land tries to heal - which man then stoopidly sprays out with poison further killing off, simplifying, and degrading the system - which leads to dried carbon poor soils and hotter global temperatures). We should note that European and North American soils in particular are far more fertile than what we mostly have in Australia. Make no mistake though - you are desertifying them - just at a less obvious rate. Perhaps rising global temperatures are a more noticeable symptom.

When you've observed and lived in harmony with this caper for hundreds of thousands of years as Australian Aborigines have you'll also realize that grassland/ woodland etc are not fixed entities - but ebb and flow like waves on a beach over vast time frames in symbiosis with the web of life and greater cosmological cycles.

The problems of today are more political and elitist than anything else. It isn't 'climate change' that is causing fires in the Amazon, but a class of capitalist succubi heck dang bent on further dispossesing indigenous people's and stealing the collective environmental asset of the world.

They are more than happy for you to demonize 'the other' and chase bubbles of pink elephants through the air while they sell you on the taxation of that air to further enslave you.




Chosun

Last edited by Chosun Juan : Sunday 29th September 2019 at 15:37. Reason: Dan autocorrect !
Chosun Juan is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 29th September 2019, 13:16   #727
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 6,273
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by fugl View Post
.... It’s not a case of telling other countries what to do but of entering into binding international agreements for the common good. Or, maybe, you think of the modern nation state as a fundamental unit of polity, inviolable and eternal, incapable of further development? I don’t and would be very surprised if it survives the century in anything like its present form....
Is your money on a worldwide evolution in that regard? or devolution? and is a revolution on the cards for either case?




Chosun
Chosun Juan is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 29th September 2019, 13:37   #728
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 6,273
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by fugl View Post
....Sea levels, ice melting and the rest. The following summary should put your doubts to rest about the reality of accelerating sea level rises in recent years (though I’d be amazed if it did ).

https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Our political opinions and our views on what constitutes convincing evidence are so divergent that I think further discussion would be a waste of time. You’re more than welcome to the last word if you want it.
So let me see if I've got this correct - there were natural variations in various cosmological and planetary cycles which changed the amount of heat the world experienced over long cycles and this affected the absorption/emission mass balance of CO2e ..... ?

Pray tell what happens to the actual heat driving it itself?

What would be the effect of paving untold billions? of square kilometers in gazillions? of tons of heat compounding and retaining concrete etc in place of natural hydrological and vegetative 'air-conditioning' mechanisms? and just about totally (insert majority high % figure of your choice) degrade any remaining land masses such that their natural carbon cycle and heat regulating function is effectively kaput?

I would like to see a planetary (at least) scale statistical analysis of the nett effect of compounding so many base thermodynamic and statististical assumptions - surely the only answer is that the entire premise must have a very good chance of being invalid?




Chosun
Chosun Juan is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 29th September 2019, 13:58   #729
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 6,273
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by fugl View Post
.....
One thing, however, is certain, harking back to an illusionary “Golden Age” when men lived in peace with each other and “in harmony with nature”, is a cop-out—instead think: “doing what it takes to scratch-out a living” (just like most of the world population today); internecine warfare; murderous raids on neighbors for women or other goods or just for the hell of it; short lifespans generally ending painfully in violence, untreatable diseases or infected wounds; hatred of strangers; barbaric religious practices; rotting teeth.
I can't speak for the rest of the world, but this definitely doesn't reference Australian Aborigines. So good did they make it that 'life was but a dream' .....

There are strict 'skin' rules as to who can and who can not engage in mating. No widespread raids as the whole thing was very organized and the epitome of civilization. Not saying that there weren't the odd cases of 'cousin-lovin' that tempted but the rules are a cultural embodiment Anyone 'going rogue' and refusing Ancestral Law was then subject to Spiritual Law - and Kadaitcha Men don't miss, and they never cease - time and space hold no bounds. They make Cyborg Terminators look like house bound 800lb Krispy Creme lovers with free lifelong cable!

I think it's telling that upon first contact the vast majority of Aborigines were the picture of health, and arguably far physically superior and more mentally superior than they were given credit for (didn't have those wretched murderous ego separations though) - ask Binastro - he's well versed in the physical attributes - particularly optically. By and large they all had five digits per limb, and as far as I know none of them ever invented the banjo !

I know the Golden Utopia is outside the thinking and realms of possibility of 'modern' man --- but it's coming ......




Chosun

Last edited by Chosun Juan : Sunday 29th September 2019 at 16:24.
Chosun Juan is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 29th September 2019, 14:09   #730
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 6,273
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Sadly I disagree with your appraisal. I disbelieve the idea that AGW is the master evil of our time. The oceans are a great moderator, so nothing drastic will happen during the next century or so. That buys us time to move to emission free power technologies. If I had to pick one, I'd nominate corruption as the master evil of our time, but it has a long and sordid history throughout other cultures and ages as well, with no durable remedies yet found.
Imho, the various 'green' energy offerings all provide at best very intermittent power, at exuberant cost. They would be unworkable except for massive subsidies which detract from more plausible solutions such as more advanced nuclear power, currently the only reliable source of emission free and fully scalable power.
In terms of the rain forests and their destruction, it is an outrage that truly calls into question the legitimacy of the national governments involved, in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Solutions are well above my pay grade however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugl View Post
Well, I agree with you about nuclear energy (which I forgot to mention in my original post) but, unsurprisingly, little else in your post so perhaps we should leave things there?

That said, I’m puzzled by your “pay grade” remark. You feel competent, after all, to express an opinion on AGW, a complicated, highly technical subject only fully understandable in all its ramifications by highly trained scientists in faculties and committees assembled. Why not also, then, on international protections for rainforests, a political matter on which ordinary citizens can—and should—have an opinion? Probably unachievable in the present state of the world, admittedly, but still worth thinking about and working towards (e.g., in the US context, by voting a certain isolationist out-of-office).
And that gentlemen is the crux of the folly right there.
Why would you leap out of the frying pan (supposedly) into the fire (literally) ..... ?!?

Intractable waste and spurious economics are not something we need to add to the mix.

Follow the money, follow the money. 'ding ding'. Of course it's very hard to wage war and engender mass fear and control with distributed solar panels ......




Chosun
Chosun Juan is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 29th September 2019, 17:26   #731
fugl
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 15,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Is your money on a worldwide evolution in that regard? or devolution? and is a revolution on the cards for either case?
Haven’t a clue, wish I did. . .. What do you think?
__________________
Bird photos (Flickr): http://www.flickr.com/photos/fugl/
". . .Let them be left, O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

--Gerard Manley Hopkins

Last edited by fugl : Sunday 29th September 2019 at 17:32.
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 29th September 2019, 18:15   #732
fugl
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 15,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
I can't speak for the rest of the world, but this definitely doesn't reference Australian Aborigines. So good did they make it that 'life was but a dream' .....

There are strict 'skin' rules as to who can and who can not engage in mating. No widespread raids as the whole thing was very organized and the epitome of civilization. Not saying that there weren't the odd cases of 'cousin-lovin' that tempted but the rules are a cultural embodiment Anyone 'going rogue' and refusing Ancestral Law was then subject to Spiritual Law - and Kadaitcha Men don't miss, and they never cease - time and space hold no bounds. They make Cyborg Terminators look like house bound 800lb Krispy Creme lovers with free lifelong cable!

I think it's telling that upon first contact the vast majority of Aborigines were the picture of health, and arguably far physically superior and more mentally superior than they were given credit for (didn't have those wretched murderous ego separations though) - ask Binastro - he's well versed in the physical attributes - particularly optically. By and large they all had five digits per limb, and as far as I know none of them ever invented the banjo !

I know the Golden Utopia is outside the thinking and realms of possibility of 'modern' man --- but it's coming ......
I don’t think we can fruitfully discuss such matters, Chosun, our views on how the world works are too divergent. . ..
__________________
Bird photos (Flickr): http://www.flickr.com/photos/fugl/
". . .Let them be left, O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

--Gerard Manley Hopkins
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 29th September 2019, 18:45   #733
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
 
Chosun Juan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central West NSW, Australia
Posts: 6,273
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Is your money on a worldwide evolution in that regard? or devolution? and is a revolution on the cards for either case?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugl View Post
Haven’t a clue, wish I did. . .. What do you think?
Well, we know what won't work - isolationist popularism, outright totalitarianism and fascism, far left socialism etc. That just leaves centerist multilateralism - but a new improved version guided by indigenous wisdom, integrity, egalitarianism, and vision.

I know folks in the US think they have got it bad with Trump, but in comparison how people transform China, Russia, and many Islamic Repressors will be a bigger issue.

Beyond politics we really must stop pillaging this home of ours, and Capitalism itself must be reborn, valuing ecosystems inherently, addressing the blatant tax avoidance of the too big too fail (and too powerful to reign in thusfar) multinationals. It seems Big Brother has also walked in the front door while everyone was busy keeping up with the Kardashians ..... and that can't be good .....

I could tell you encouraging tales of beings that I ushered through a doorway to enter our world on the Spring Equinox here, but that notion may be too far out and outside the understanding of many folks worldview. I don't know exactly how things will unfold from here only that they are on the right side of the ledger and do good work - and they're super tall.

Many times, after seeing what my fellow travellers are unfortunately choosing for their dream, I'm left having to turn to confidence in hope. This tune is good. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2zyAmCJTuBw

Fingers crossed ay :)




Chosun

Last edited by Chosun Juan : Sunday 29th September 2019 at 19:04. Reason: Beyond politics ....
Chosun Juan is online now  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2016 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 29th September 2019, 20:09   #734
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
And that gentlemen is the crux of the folly right there.
Why would you leap out of the frying pan (supposedly) into the fire (literally) ..... ?!?

Intractable waste and spurious economics are not something we need to add to the mix.

Chosun
There is more intractable waste produced by wind power than by nuclear, as the rare earths required for the generators are hugely messy to extract and leave behind square miles of earth deeply contaminated with thorium, which usually is found associated with the rare earths. Imho it was one of China's more ecologically sensitive decisions to massively boost the price of these elements, the intolerable environmental damage was not reflected in the market value.

I do agree that the economics of nuclear today are cloud cuckoo absurd, but if we are to lift several billion out of dire poverty, we need reliable power without massive emissions.
Australia in theory has everything needed to show that solar is the answer, lots of sun, plentiful land and supportive regulators and governments. Sadly, the experience to date has been spotty, erratic power at inflated prices. That is what keeps people looking at nuclear, warts and all we know it works reliably.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 30th September 2019, 15:23   #735
CalvinFold
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019
 
CalvinFold's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: San Leandro, CA, USA
Posts: 1,638
I see nuclear offered as a solution.

Reactors have, in theory, more safeguards if anyone can ever manage and fund one of the new-generation ones with all the failsafes and reduced complexities.

What I have not heard about is the latest advances in waste disposal: not just how to secure store it and the ever-growing amounts of it if nuclear becomes the mainstay, but the latest technologies in reducing how long the stuff remains dangerous.

When we talk about storage for tens of thousands of years compounded by growth in the sector, that gives me pause more than the reactors themselves.

Someone want to fill me in on the latest and greatest on the nuclear waste front?
__________________
Kevin (aka CalvinFold)
My Gallery • Equipment used: 2013 | 2014 | 2015–2018
CalvinFold is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 30th September 2019, 19:51   #736
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalvinFold View Post
I see nuclear offered as a solution.

Reactors have, in theory, more safeguards if anyone can ever manage and fund one of the new-generation ones with all the failsafes and reduced complexities.

What I have not heard about is the latest advances in waste disposal: not just how to secure store it and the ever-growing amounts of it if nuclear becomes the mainstay, but the latest technologies in reducing how long the stuff remains dangerous.

When we talk about storage for tens of thousands of years compounded by growth in the sector, that gives me pause more than the reactors themselves.

Someone want to fill me in on the latest and greatest on the nuclear waste front?
Sad to say that afaik, there are no new breakthroughs in the broad area of nuclear waste management. To put it into perspective though, the total amount involved in nuclear is actually fairly small. on the order of 100 million cubic meters cumulatively, with over 80% low level or very low level wastes.

To provide context, the global coal production of about 8 billion tons annually is roughly 100 times larger,translating to roughly 800 million tons of coal ashes, with a volume of 1000 million cubic meters. Coal ash too is radioactive as well as contaminated with heavy metals, but is used widely to make concrete. Even so, there are massive ash piles, covering square miles of land many feet deep, around major coal fired plants, along with additional piles of the spent flue cleaning materials used to remove sulfur from the smokestacks. These regularly result in major environmental disasters.

Consequently, I believe the focus on nuclear waste is too selective.
The by products of coal power are at least as damaging and are similarly perpetually dangerous, as mercury and arsenic are no less hazardous than radioactivity and equally difficult to detect.
Similar concerns apply to wind power, where the rare earths essential for the generators are nightmarishly difficult to extract economically without poisoning the landscape or to solar, where the fabrication and disposition of square miles of solar panels poses a huge toxic waste management challenge.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 30th September 2019, 20:18   #737
fugl
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 15,129
AGW & the way forward—

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/30/o...core-ios-share
__________________
Bird photos (Flickr): http://www.flickr.com/photos/fugl/
". . .Let them be left, O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

--Gerard Manley Hopkins
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Monday 30th September 2019, 20:35   #738
dantheman
Bah humbug
 
dantheman's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 12,228
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugl View Post
Have to sign in unfortunately.
__________________
stithiansreservoirbirding.blogspot.co.uk/ - last update 10/11/15 - really rather remarkable still!!!
dantheman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 30th September 2019, 21:08   #739
fugl
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 15,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman View Post
Have to sign in unfortunately.
How irritating. I wish I knew a work-around but I don’t. Sorry.
__________________
Bird photos (Flickr): http://www.flickr.com/photos/fugl/
". . .Let them be left, O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

--Gerard Manley Hopkins
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 10th October 2019, 20:58   #740
fugl
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 15,129
Carbon tax the best way out. . .

https://www.washingtonpost.com/clima...ange-imf-says/
__________________
Bird photos (Flickr): http://www.flickr.com/photos/fugl/
". . .Let them be left, O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

--Gerard Manley Hopkins
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 10th October 2019, 21:57   #741
dalethorn
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 120
Climate Change per se is long term and the huge picture that we scarcely know how to get our arms around. But with rising sea levels, esp. if really large glaciers break off from Greenland or Antarctica, we can visualize a huge emergency of sudden migration of a hundred million people, or perhaps double or triple that. Think about the friction that would cause.
dalethorn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 10th October 2019, 22:33   #742
fugl
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 15,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalethorn View Post
Climate Change per se is long term and the huge picture that we scarcely know how to get our arms around.
But with rising sea levels, esp. if really large glaciers break off from Greenland or Antarctica, we can visualize a huge emergency of sudden migration of a hundred million people, or perhaps double or triple that. Think about the friction that would cause.
Not all that “long term”, unfortunately—decades not centuries—and all the more reason to “get our arms around” those parts of the phenomenon we can do something about, carbon emissions for example. What other available course is there, after all, beyond claiming it’s all too much for us and doing nothing?
__________________
Bird photos (Flickr): http://www.flickr.com/photos/fugl/
". . .Let them be left, O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

--Gerard Manley Hopkins
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Thursday 10th October 2019, 22:49   #743
dalethorn
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugl View Post
Not all that “long term”, unfortunately—decades not centuries—and all the more reason to “get our arms around” those parts of the phenomenon we can do something about, carbon emissions for example. What other available course is there, after all, beyond claiming it’s all too much for us and doing nothing?
If you check my post, it doesn't suggest hopelessness about curbing emissions, nor abandoning the oceans to plastics, nor abandoning the remaining rainforests etc. etc.

What it does suggest is the likelihood of sudden swarms of migrants, perhaps in the hundreds of millions, overrunning towns and villages all over the globe, which can produce a wave of bloodshed like the world has never seen.

That's the difference between a cancer and a heart attack.
dalethorn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 11th October 2019, 01:42   #744
fugl
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 15,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalethorn View Post
If you check my post, it doesn't suggest hopelessness about curbing emissions, nor abandoning the oceans to plastics, nor abandoning the remaining rainforests etc. etc
And if you check my post you'll find that I didn't accuse you personally of anything.That said, there are certainly many who profess hopelessness in the face of AGW--or simply deny it, I don't know which is worse--and that I find very depressing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalethorn View Post
What it does suggest is the likelihood of sudden swarms of migrants, perhaps in the hundreds of millions, overrunning towns and villages all over the globe, which can produce a wave of bloodshed like the world has never seen.
Indeed, the worldwide submergence of seacoasts with their huge cities and billions of inhabitants would have immense consequences, including in all probability social/political/economic breakdown and violence on a staggering scale. I have no argument with you there either.

So, onward & upward. . .. Paper straws, windmills and carbon taxes, anyone?
__________________
Bird photos (Flickr): http://www.flickr.com/photos/fugl/
". . .Let them be left, O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

--Gerard Manley Hopkins
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 11th October 2019, 13:12   #745
dalethorn
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugl View Post
And if you check my post you'll find that I didn't accuse you personally of anything.That said, there are certainly many who profess hopelessness in the face of AGW--or simply deny it, I don't know which is worse--and that I find very depressing.
So, onward & upward. . .. Paper straws, windmills and carbon taxes, anyone?
There's no need for paranoia here. I merely reemphasized what you were glossing over, namely that sudden and bloody invasions of millions of migrants are a threat of societal collapse worldwide.

Try for example to find any internet discussions of global warming and seas rising that emphasize the great danger of a hundred million or more people suddenly invading populated areas inland.
dalethorn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 11th October 2019, 17:23   #746
fugl
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 15,129
“Paranoia“? “Glossing over“?

Why so hostile?
__________________
Bird photos (Flickr): http://www.flickr.com/photos/fugl/
". . .Let them be left, O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

--Gerard Manley Hopkins
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 11th October 2019, 18:59   #747
dalethorn
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugl View Post
“Paranoia“? “Glossing over“?
Why so hostile?
Not me. You used the word accuse, which I certainly didn't do. I'll reiterate my point for the record: Of all the mentions I see in media about global warming, never (or almost never) do they mention or emphasize the most extreme danger of immediate mass global migration.

I try to avoid agendas and political sides, but I do have a passion for this issue and how none of our governments seem to be addressing this danger in any visible way.

Most large governments, and certainly the U.S., seem to be run by large corporations and their powerful lobbies these days, and I suspect that most of those are OK with articles and discussions on global warming, because they've made some preparation to sell us solutions of some sort when the time comes that they're desperately needed. But even then, if there are no big profits to be made in addressing mass emergency migration, then it makes sense that they wouldn't be interested in public service campaigns to raise awareness of that issue.
dalethorn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 11th October 2019, 19:38   #748
etudiant
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalethorn View Post
Most large governments, and certainly the U.S., seem to be run by large corporations and their powerful lobbies these days, and I suspect that most of those are OK with articles and discussions on global warming, because they've made some preparation to sell us solutions of some sort when the time comes that they're desperately needed. But even then, if there are no big profits to be made in addressing mass emergency migration, then it makes sense that they wouldn't be interested in public service campaigns to raise awareness of that issue.
It does not take AGW to spur mass migration, desperation because of poverty and violence is quite sufficient. I would think that Britain would understand that pretty well, given the highly publicized migration through the Chunnel.
What is interesting is that no demonstrated solution has been found by any of the Western countries, not even by Australia, which has draconian policies and which is isolated by oceans on all sides.
etudiant is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 11th October 2019, 20:23   #749
fugl
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 15,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
It does not take AGW to spur mass migration, desperation because of poverty and violence is quite sufficient. . ..
Indeed, but unchecked AGW is in line to make matters worse, much much worse.
__________________
Bird photos (Flickr): http://www.flickr.com/photos/fugl/
". . .Let them be left, O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

--Gerard Manley Hopkins

Last edited by fugl : Friday 11th October 2019 at 21:34.
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Sunday 10th November 2019, 08:23   #750
fugl
Registered User
BF Supporter 2019

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 15,129
AGW, the news gets worse and worse—

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/o...core-ios-share
__________________
Bird photos (Flickr): http://www.flickr.com/photos/fugl/
". . .Let them be left, O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet."

--Gerard Manley Hopkins
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rising Sun Sets in the South Farnboro John Cetaceans & Marine Life 3 Wednesday 2nd April 2014 20:49
Rising to the challenge (RSPB) BF Newsroom Latest news from the RSPB 0 Thursday 29th March 2012 16:58
Camera Insurance/rising prices simon Equipment Insurance 0 Thursday 22nd January 2009 20:59
Rising sea could end bittern boom (BBC News) BF Newsroom Live Bird News from around the World 12 Saturday 8th March 2008 09:57
Cormorants rising from the ashes.... Jos Stratford Birds & Birding 9 Tuesday 30th November 2004 15:17

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.24106789 seconds with 40 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 10:37.