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New Generation Tract Toric 10X42 Schott HT (1 Viewer)

I think that Tract is just using a marketing term, in using Schott HT in its updated binoculars
name.

Zeiss has offered the Zeiss Terra ED for several years now, and it also has Schott extra low dispersion glass, as they use it in their specifications.

Schott is a sister company of Zeiss, and Zeiss makes no special mention of glass types in their higher end.

I would like to know if having Schott glass really means anything special.

Jerry
 
NDhunter said:
I think that Tract is just using a marketing term, in using Schott HT in its updated binoculars
name.

Zeiss has offered the Zeiss Terra ED for several years now, and it also has Schott extra low dispersion glass, as they use it in their specifications.

Schott is a sister company of Zeiss, and Zeiss makes no special mention of glass types in their higher end.https://www.birdforum.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3695553

I would like to know if having Schott glass really means anything special.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Jerry

When I used to work in the stainless steel business folks that didn't used to say to me that selling it must be just down to price because all stainless steels are made to international standards with set chemical compositions and it would be easy to think glass is like this and maybe some of it is.

But back then some steelmakers were known to consistently produce steels that, while they complied with standards, were balanced chemically in a way to give certain desired properties. For example for making tableware some steels were better at stretch-forming while steels from other makers was better at deep drawing. Some maker's steels made better welds than others. One of the things that contributed was the ability to control sulphur and phosphorous to lower levels than other miills could. So even while working within established chemical compositions different mills managed to produce steels that were consistently different from other mills' steels that were nominally made to the same international grade.

How does this apply to glass? I suspect it is similar in that tighter control of the chemistry is likely to achieve different and /or more consistent characteristics of the glass. And then there is control of air bubble content and I dare say there is other stuff that can be achieved by ultra-tight control of cooling rates that I just don't know about.

So is Schott glass special? I think the answer is likely to be that some of it is and some of it may be of normal 'commercial' quality. Certainly I became aware of Schott glass long before I became really interested in binos because their glass seemed to be the glass of choice for big astronomical observatory telescopes. Schott glass always seemed to get chosen for these mega-projects.

Other makers like O'Hara and Hoya probably have their own speciality grades too. I do know for a fact that when the original Terras were being designed that some of the sales folks fought hard to get Schott ED glass instead of ED glass from other makers.

Lee
 
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NDhunter said:
I think that Tract is just using a marketing term, in using Schott HT in its updated binoculars
name.

Zeiss has offered the Zeiss Terra ED for several years now, and it also has Schott extra low dispersion glass, as they use it in their specifications.

Schott is a sister company of Zeiss, and Zeiss makes no special mention of glass types in their higher end.

I would like to know if having Schott glass really means anything special.

Jerry
Click to expand...
I am surprised that you of all people would suggest this Jerry, and I seriously doubt that you are correct. If you are, I will eat my hat!

If it was just marketing smoke and mirrors by Tract without physically using the actual product, then they would leave themselves wide open to prosecution for false advertising. This is something I would have thought you would know. I don't think they are that stoopid. They would actually be using some grade of Schott HT glass somewhere in the new Toric's optical train.

Schott HT glass is a range of glass that has special 'High Transmission' properties - specifically incrementally more transmission than other types in the cooler part of the spectrum, and it is a low inclusion glass. There are many products. You can read all about it in their catalogue.

On the contrary to what you have said, Zeiss does specify what glass types it uses. It uses 'FL' glass in the FL series and HT also. The HT uses 'HT' glass as well (they say lenses, and perhaps in part of the A-K prism too), and the SF uses an 'Ultra FL' glass system (multiple FL elements). Whilst they don't specify part numbers, or grades, based on their designs and performance, you could be reasonaby sure that each of those types was the top spec offered by Schott in each of those categories at the time.

The Terra ED is a different kettle of fish. It is a budget model. There are many grades of ED glass. It likely uses amongst the cheapest and lowest spec ED glass that it could justify using the 'ED' name for.

Don't get hung up on the name Schott, there are hundreds of grades and specifications of glass available in their Catalogue. Other makers such as Ohara, Hoya, etc also have many different grades of glass available - some of which may be equal or superior to Schott. It all depends on the exact specifications, and just as importantly where and how they are used in a particular optical design.

I hope this helps clear things up for you and our newer members.



Chosun :gh:
 
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In some respects the use of Schott HT glass can be viewed as a marketing term. Schott has a superior reputation. In fact it almost seems like people think Schott has a secret hidden valley high in the Alps where lives a secret tribe of Tinkerbell Pixies who are tended to by Schott Pixie keepers. The Pixie dust is used in accordance with ancient company traditions to produce magic glass. ;) I can’t tell you how many times in forums besides this one where the attitude is “if it ain’t Schott glass, it ain’t worth a sh...”you get the idea. Schott’s reputation is well deserved, but their glass is a recipe. That technology is likely widely available.

On the other hand Schott HT glass is something real, you can see it, feel, and hold it. So Chosun is right in her above post, Tract would have to be really dumb to say it unless it was so. Tract is likely smart in using it and advertising it. However some caution is necessary here. It has been pointed out here many times that a 4-5% increase in light transmission is needed to give results the typical human eye can see. I do not think a couple of pieces of Schott HT in a sub $700 binocular will do that. Actual visible improvements are more likely to be attributable to improved coatings. I would not anticipate more than 1-2% transmission increase. The locking diopter is likely to be the most significant field worthy feature. I doubt you will be able to see anything with the new Tract you could not see with the old.

I doubt there will be other issues like glare that are any different between the original and new Toric. It is not a problem in the original and likely will not be an issue in the new. However I will wait until I see a new Toric to actually form an opinion.
 
Steve,

It is indeed clever marketing. Very cheeky too - leveraging (copying!) off the excellent performance (95% light transmission) of Zeiss's HT series, and all the investment they made in advertising that introduction.

But it's not "just" marketing. I have no doubt that the Tract Toric HT have at least one element of officially branded "HT" glass from Schott. They would be absolute fools not too - especially in such a litigious society as America. It's not the Schott part so much that's important - it's the HT part.

Yes, the benefits to transmission would be no more than ~1 - 2%, and thus not practically detectable in brightness terms in isolation. However there are other benefits to colour vibrancy above and beyond that. Lee was adamant that the benefits to the Zeiss HT went way above and beyond the small increase in light transmission above the superceded FL series. He said that both blues, and reds were noticeably more vibrant, with colours at the extremes of the spectrum really popping. His comments are in the big HT thread.

It would be very interesting when someone (perhaps younger than middle aged with good blue spectrum colour fidelity still) gets to A/B the old Torics and these new HT versions.

Provided Tract is doing above the minimum, and has had coatings re-indexed accordingly, I expect we'll see Zeiss HT type gains (over the FL in colour saturation).

We will see ......... :cat:



Chosun :gh:
 
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Chosun Juan said:
Steve,

It is indeed clever marketing. Very cheeky too - leveraging (copying!) off the excellent performance (95% light transmission) of Zeiss's HT series, and all the investment they made in advertising that introduction.

But it's not "just" marketing. I have no doubt that the Tract Toric HT have at least one element of officially branded "HT" glass from Schott. They would be absolute fools not too - especially in such a litigious society as America. It's not the Schott part so much that's important - it's the HT part.

Yes, the benefits to transmission would be no more than ~1 - 2%, and thus not practically detectable in brightness terms in isolation. However there are other benefits to colour vibrancy above and beyond that. Lee was adamant that the benefits to the Zeiss HT went way above and beyond the small increase in light transmission above the superceded FL series. He said that both blues, and reds were noticeably more vibrant, with colours at the extremes of the spectrum really popping. His comments are in the big HT thread.

It would be very interesting when someone (perhaps younger than middle aged with good blue spectrum colour fidelity still) gets to A/B the old Torics and these new HT versions.

Provided Tract is doing above the minimum, and has had coatings re-indexed accordingly, I expect we'll see Zeiss HT type gains (over the FL in colour saturation).

We will see ......... :cat:



Chosun :gh:
Click to expand...

Chosun,

I do not disagree at all with your post. I did not go there, because we have no idea just how much of "going the extra mile" is going to happen with the new Toric. The thing is the original Toric is good enough as it stands to push anything made. To get a noticeable practical optical improvement over the original Toric with the new one, we will be talking alpha parity, at least as far as image performance goes. That kind of comparison will light a bonfire. I simply have the notion, to be held in place until I see one, that there is not enough price increase to offer that kind of improvement.

Good marketing is a good start, but it has to be followed by real product improvements. Plus everything else that blends a successful business.
 
Steve:

I agree with you about seeing if the differences in the new Toric model, are significant.

The original model is well done, and I'm sure we will see some comparisons.

It seems one new binocular the Leica Noctovid has promoted its use of Schott HT glass.

I have seen HT mean "high Transmission", and so it must be something special.

Jerry
 
This ol' train goes 'round and 'round..........the average guy probably can't see the difference in the UHD Toric 8x42 vs SLC HD 8x42 either, etc, etc etc...........
 
PFG1 said:
Is it ok to add that I don't like the chosen grey armor?

It makes it look somewhat cheap-industrial. JMO.
Click to expand...

Sure, it's OK, but you're wrong! 8-P In person, they look very classy, and even better, they feel great in the hands!

Everybody has boring black and others have boring green binoculars, but not many have classy looking grey ones! Besides, they won't get as hot in the sun either!
 
Some of the posted complaints against Maven is they they in fact offer a choice of different armor and other color choices. It won't please everyone regardless of what color it is. Best remedy is to remember you have a binocular for the main purpose of looking through it.
 
dries1 said:
Bruce,

Perhaps a chance for you to visit the right coast.

A.W.
Click to expand...

I do not see it happening this year, but it would be fun to attend the PA show sometime. BirdFair would also be a great show to attend. In the meantime I will live vicariously through the show posts from you, Frank, David and Lee.
 
Sure, you can!

BruceH said:
I do not see it happening this year, but it would be fun to attend the PA show sometime. BirdFair would also be a great show to attend. In the meantime I will live vicariously through the show posts from you, Frank, David and Lee.
Click to expand...

Right Andy, we'd show him a good time! So, what's holding you back (bring your goldfish along!) and do I need to invite you too, Bruce?!! You're welcome anytime in my little crowded part of the world! Come on down, and see Valley Forge at the same time! I know you're a history buff, and it's right there!
 
Bruce,
All of September is a great time on the east Coast, as you said possibly down the road. I am interested to see Tract and a new 8X42.

A.W.
 
PFG1 said:
Is it ok to add that I don't like the chosen grey armor?

It makes it look somewhat cheap-industrial. JMO.
Click to expand...

bluespiderweb said:
Sure, it's OK, but you're wrong! 8-P In person, they look very classy, and even better, they feel great in the hands!

Everybody has boring black and others have boring green binoculars, but not many have classy looking grey ones! Besides, they won't get as hot in the sun either!
Click to expand...

PFG1 ..... " Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" so it is totally understandable that the gray armor does not appeal to you. There are several posts with similar comments of the first gray version of the Zeiss SF.

I agree with Barry that is the hand, they look real nice.

The Opticron Imagic twin has a much more industrial look to me. I like both. The Toric is more showy and the Imagic is more discreet.

Here are the first version of the Tract Toric on the left and the Imagic BGA VHD on the right. Both are 10X42. Gray is hard to get right in a photo. In reality, the Toric is a little darker than what shows up in the photo.

DSCN1046_3 Resize.jpg


bluespiderweb said:
Right Andy, we'd show him a good time! So, what's holding you back (bring your goldfish along!) and do I need to invite you too, Bruce?!! You're welcome anytime in my little crowded part of the world! Come on down, and see Valley Forge at the same time! I know you're a history buff, and it's right there!
Click to expand...

dries1 said:
Bruce,
All of September is a great time on the east Coast, as you said possibly down the road. I am interested to see Tract and a new 8X42.

A.W.
Click to expand...

What would be a good trip is to hit Hawk Mountain the middle of September to catch the peak of Broad-winged migration, then head east to the show, then head south on the Blue Ridge Parkway to catch the fall colors.
 
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