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Magpies and crows to be culled to protect songbirds (1 Viewer)

Lumping hawks and corvids in the same predator category is just daft, they are totaly different. This all stems from the paranoia that culling corvids will lead to culling raptors. Society;s prospective on raptors has changed, it is only a small minority of toffs stuck in the nineteenth century and a few pigeon racers who think any different. Society as a whole would never allow a large scale raptor cull so relax.
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You are right there, its a huge jump from saying legal culling of Corvids works so lets change the law and start culling raptors ansd I think you are right that this extremely remote possibility is what is causing a big part of the objection. Like I said at the start of this thread the subject of the Corvid Cull is a big fuss over nothing really because Corvids are heavily culled every single day already and have been for hundreds of years so wether or not this cull goes ahead is really irrelevent. The only problem is the thought that it might lead to culling Raptors but as you rightly point ouit thats a huge step and not one i see hapening in a hurry.
 
I just want to say thanks to everyone who made it clear that raptors are not going to be culled. I started panicking slightly when I read in the newspaper that buzzards and sprawks were going to be culled and it mentioned my area the Scottish Borders as one area the cull was going to take place and thought I was going to see a lot less raptors but now I know that's not going to happen so thanks:D
 
But without an improvement in habitat (and food) there can be no recovery

You probably ought to be aware that the corvid study is partly a response to the fact that bird populations haven’t recovered despite the taxpayer billions that have been pouring into improving habitat via agri-environment schemes. The RSPB put on a brave face, but behind the scenes they are panic stricken about it.

On the face of it, it seems unlikely that nest predation by corvids is the cause of bird declines, since all the demographic evidence points to declines in adult and first year survival across a whole range of species, and no change in breeding success. However GWCT’s gambit is that declines have been caused by agricultural intensification via increased adult mortality, but that predation is blocking recovery by, among other things, preventing a density dependent improvement in breeding success.

It’s far too clever an idea for me. I think predation caused the declines, and it could easily be settled one way or the other in a matter of weeks, but that would be letting science get in the way of politics.

http://cpbell.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/CultoftheAmateur
 
I just want to say thanks to everyone who made it clear that raptors are not going to be culled.

Where as I agree the jump from corvid to raptors is unlikely and disproportionate, I worry over the point of the corvid cull considering that corvids are so commonly controlled anyway. I do think this cull is being carried out with the intentions of paving the way for future control, but of what is speculation.
 
I see on birdguides this morning that the RSPB has released a report on declining wader nesting success on upland areas and among other things crow and fox predation from increasing forestry is being blamed.

Bit of a problem when they are planting trees to encourage black grouse.
 
I think this is exactly what has happened and exactly why people want the cull. In an ideal world like you say just reverse the habitat loss but lets face it in many cases thats not going to happen and its a problem that only likely to get worse.

Perhaps a somewhat cynical view, Adam, but certainly not far off the mark. It's interesting that no-one has suggested an old, but effective technique for countering the perceived impact of colonial corvids, and that is the regular disturbance of their colonies through the breeding season - not shooting, just making the area less attractive and forcing them to redistribute - it could well spread corvid predation over a wider area and reduce local effects in areas of poor and degraded songbird habitat. Of course, this doesn't require owners of Purdeys to arrive in droves for a grand day out, just the employment of a country-wise individual. I would guess that the relative costs would not be given much weight in certain quarters!

Like I said at the start of this thread the subject of the Corvid Cull is a big fuss over nothing really because Corvids are heavily culled every single day already and have been for hundreds of years so whether or not this cull goes ahead is really irrelevent.

Adam, this might be taken as excellent evidence that culling is an ineffective strategy, but may well be an effective tactic locally!
MJB
 
Adam, this might be taken as excellent evidence that culling is an ineffective strategy, but may well be an effective tactic locally!
MJB


You could be right, or of course it could also be that the problem could be many times worse than it already is if we didnt already have the culling that we do.
 
I see on birdguides this morning that the RSPB has released a report on declining wader nesting success on upland areas and among other things crow and fox predation from increasing forestry is being blamed.

Bit of a problem when they are planting trees to encourage black grouse.

Presumably thats one of the reasons the RSPB dont have a problem with culling Corvids in certain circumstances and in my opinion rightly so.
 
Of course, this doesn't require owners of Purdeys to arrive in droves for a grand day out, just the employment of a country-wise individual.


I somehow doubt a Corvid cull would be carried by droves of Purdey owners on a grand day out. Of course there's nothing to say a country wise individual wont own a Purdey as well but i certainly wouldnt be using it for that.
 
I see on birdguides this morning that the RSPB has released a report on declining wader nesting success on upland areas and among other things crow and fox predation from increasing forestry is being blamed. Bit of a problem when they are planting trees to encourage black grouse.

BW, you may be right, but possibly you are not comparing like with like. Monoculture forestry of tree species mostly not native to uplands when these actually were forested provides potential breeding sites that are safe for corvids (and fox dens), whereas the 'planting trees to encourage Black Grouse' is aimed at native species that tend to grow at low densities.

One huge experiment to support the conversion of steppe in what is now an independent Ukraine was to plant thousands of kilometres of tree shelter-belts (comprising rapidly-growing tree species) to help retain soil when the steppe had been ploughed and was subject to characteristic md-continent winds. The steppe had been the home of many well-adapted ground-nesting (naturally!) bird species, but when the shelter-belts began to mature, the Rook population of the steppes grew from zero to millions in a short period. Of course Rooks consume many soil-living creatures once ploughing is regular, but they did devastate ground-nesting bird populations, some steady breeding distribution expansions being abruptly reversed (eg of Black- and Red-headed Buntings.

Industrial agriculture across Europe has led to a wide range of bird population declines, and still does (compare bird densities in the former Eastern Germany at the time of unification with the then West Germany and also with present trends in the former EG). What seems to be indicated by the set-aside overall results are concerns in two areas: the extent of habitat loss has been such that relatively small-scale (despite the costs of compensation schemes) and simple countermeasures alone are not enough, which leads to the other area of concern, namely were there sufficient resources available to carry out continuous monitoring of a sufficiently large enough sample size of sites? A corollary here is the unmeasured extent of those approved and paid-for schemes where recipients simply didn't put any land into set-aside or left only a fraction of the agreed area in set-aside condition.

I've done bird survey work over agricultural land in various places. Subjectively, my experience was that, generally, those farmers to whom I talked beforehand and who expressed a clear understanding of the relationship of farming in the context of the land had greater bird densities on their land than did those who granted access with seeming sufferance.

This divide did not follow the small-farmer/agricultural group divide, nor the lowland/upland divide. I grew up amongst farmers and so have no axe to grind from the perspective of a 'townie', but hard economics often constrains any decisions farmers may devoutly wish to take in favour of the countryside/environment. Given the current inflation in the price of staple foods on the world market and given that much of Western Europe's agricultural productivity is on land that is beginning to decline overall, it is possible that the extent of habitat loss in places may have passed a 'tipping point'.
MJB
PS 'Toffs-with-guns' farms were much more reluctant to cooperate with bird surveys, but those that did followed the divide I've discussed
 
PS 'Toffs-with-guns' farms were much more reluctant to cooperate with bird surveys, but those that did followed the divide I've discussed

I know its got nothing to do with the subject of this thread but I really wish that people realise that most shooting has sod all to do with Toffs,even those who do own Purdey's dont have to be rich toffs. I could afford to buy a Purdey(seceond hand) and pay for a days Grouse shooting each season for less than the price of most people on here probably paid for their car and seen as I dont drive I might just do that one day but i couldnt be any less of a toff if I tried. Not to mention the fact that the sort of shooting that most toffs are invloved in only represents a small portion of shooting anyway.

Sorry for the rant but it just really annoys me that so many people still think only toffs shoot. It may be the case that most toffs shoot but its certainly not the case that most people who shoot are toffs.
 
Presumably thats one of the reasons the RSPB dont have a problem with culling Corvids in certain circumstances and in my opinion rightly so.

I agree with you there, but it's a release at an unfortunate time when the Songbirds brigade will likely use it to support their campaign, which while looking to control corvids at present will likely be used as a wedge to pursue the control of raptors later.
 
BW, you may be right, but possibly you are not comparing like with like. Monoculture forestry of tree species mostly not native to uplands when these actually were forested provides potential breeding sites that are safe for corvids (and fox dens), whereas the 'planting trees to encourage Black Grouse' is aimed at native species that tend to grow at low densities.

One huge experiment to support the conversion of steppe in what is now an independent Ukraine was to plant thousands of kilometres of tree shelter-belts (comprising rapidly-growing tree species) to help retain soil when the steppe had been ploughed and was subject to characteristic md-continent winds. The steppe had been the home of many well-adapted ground-nesting (naturally!) bird species, but when the shelter-belts began to mature, the Rook population of the steppes grew from zero to millions in a short period. Of course Rooks consume many soil-living creatures once ploughing is regular, but they did devastate ground-nesting bird populations, some steady breeding distribution expansions being abruptly reversed (eg of Black- and Red-headed Buntings.

Industrial agriculture across Europe has led to a wide range of bird population declines, and still does (compare bird densities in the former Eastern Germany at the time of unification with the then West Germany and also with present trends in the former EG). What seems to be indicated by the set-aside overall results are concerns in two areas: the extent of habitat loss has been such that relatively small-scale (despite the costs of compensation schemes) and simple countermeasures alone are not enough, which leads to the other area of concern, namely were there sufficient resources available to carry out continuous monitoring of a sufficiently large enough sample size of sites? A corollary here is the unmeasured extent of those approved and paid-for schemes where recipients simply didn't put any land into set-aside or left only a fraction of the agreed area in set-aside condition.

I've done bird survey work over agricultural land in various places. Subjectively, my experience was that, generally, those farmers to whom I talked beforehand and who expressed a clear understanding of the relationship of farming in the context of the land had greater bird densities on their land than did those who granted access with seeming sufferance.

This divide did not follow the small-farmer/agricultural group divide, nor the lowland/upland divide. I grew up amongst farmers and so have no axe to grind from the perspective of a 'townie', but hard economics often constrains any decisions farmers may devoutly wish to take in favour of the countryside/environment. Given the current inflation in the price of staple foods on the world market and given that much of Western Europe's agricultural productivity is on land that is beginning to decline overall, it is possible that the extent of habitat loss in places may have passed a 'tipping point'.
MJB
PS 'Toffs-with-guns' farms were much more reluctant to cooperate with bird surveys, but those that did followed the divide I've discussed
I don't think I am comparing anything with anything.

Crows may use monoculture for cover, but they can also use native species to the same end - as can foxes.

I'm simply pointing out that the report looks to woodland as a potential source of a problem for some species, but the other side of the coin is that it's needed for black grouse. swings and roundabouts, but it is one area where crow control could well be beneficial to both sides od that particular coin.
 
I know its got nothing to do with the subject of this thread but I really wish that people realise that most shooting has sod all to do with Toffs... I couldnt be any less of a toff if I tried. Not to mention the fact that the sort of shooting that most toffs are invloved in only represents a small portion of shooting anyway. Sorry for the rant but it just really annoys me that so many people still think only toffs shoot. It may be the case that most toffs shoot but its certainly not the case that most people who shoot are toffs.

Adam, rants are fine, I do it myself!

Just two little points: first, my use of the term 'toffs-with-guns' actually was meant to distinguish from all the other farmers, as mentioned in my text, that I've met and talked to, thus supporting your point; second, it's my perception from the whole discussion in this thread that a relatively small proportion of landowners own a huge proportion of the land, and that 'toffs-with-guns' predominantly belong to that group, unlike your majority of people who shoot.
MJB
 
Adam, rants are fine, I do it myself!

Just two little points: first, my use of the term 'toffs-with-guns' actually was meant to distinguish from all the other farmers, as mentioned in my text, that I've met and talked to, thus supporting your point; second, it's my perception from the whole discussion in this thread that a relatively small proportion of landowners own a huge proportion of the land, and that 'toffs-with-guns' predominantly belong to that group, unlike your majority of people who shoot.
MJB

Fair points I did realise after I'd posted that what you'd said probably did actually apply in the cases you were talking about.
 
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