South America or Africa? (1 Viewer)

can be a bit expensive

not as many birds as other S American countries but lovely scenery

you could do the top bit and combine Lauca Park with Peru and even Bolivia

Steve, India is a classic winter destination - Bharatpur, Nainital, Corbet, and now even Arunachal and Assam, etc although trips to the north-east mountains and Great Himalaya Park are best April into June but stuff is moving high up the hills by then.

I think I am going to combine Peru and Ecuador, as they look and sound pretty great. I have just spent the last hour or so checking out various websites and have found two excellent ones: http://free-living.com/index.htm (still in various stages of construction) and www.camacdonald.com/birding* which is incredibly comprehensive and very helpful.

I am giving myself 12 months in which to save some money. What would you think would be a reasonable sum to take, Tim (as you have been there yourself), given that I am going to be doing it as inexpensively (alright - cheaply!) as possible. I don't mind a bit of "roughing it", and I am not planning to visit any five star restaurants! This is over and above getting to the countries from the UK and back.

* Found your Peru report on there Tim. Very informative.

er....don't go to that nightclub i mention Faith!

that's all i'm saying......

let me have a think about costs - it was very cheap though - I'll get back later.... maybe someone else has an idea of costs too - lots of other people have done it without a tour and guides etc.

I have a friend there at the moment and some good contacts in Cusco and Puerto Maldonado I can put you in touch with. All good people.

Thanks Tim.

Sea Wanderer said:

What is Chile like for birding?

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Hi Sea Wanderer, I hope I can clear the picture for you a little. Chile is a very long (more than 4000km.) and narrow country located between the Andes range in the East and the Pacific Ocean in the West. Due to its length it boasts almost every imaginable environment, from the driest desert in the world (Atacama) in the northern end to glacier-fringed subantarctic forest in the Patagonian (southern) tip. I won´t extend in describing the wonderfully diverse and beautiful scenery which is worldwide renowned, or mentioning the fact that it´s by far the cleanest and most developed (with the possible exception of Argentina) and surely the safest and tourist-friendliest country in South America (no kidnapping, no robbery, no shootings, no riots, no poisonous snakes, no venomous insects, no mosquitoes or malaria, edible water, no gastrointestinal diseases, no parasites, etc.), but will focus instead on the birding possibilities. Central Chile, especially the Santiago-Valparaiso area, is a biological hotspot of great interest. It has a Mediterranean type of environment and climate much like that of California, with virtually all of the endemic Birds in Chile. Chile has 470 or so Bird species, which you might think is a little low figure by South American standards, but has a great advantage on the other hand. The temperate climate is very mild and nice almost year-round, so birding turns itself into a nice trip in which you can be sure to have excellent chances of sightseeing every bird species in the area. Compare it to any Latin American tropical country in which you have to endure suffoccating heat, permanent humidity, mosquitoes, etc. not to mention safety problems, which become an issue if you are traveling alone and especially if you´re traveling alone and are a woman (no sexist protectionism meant here). Most important, birding in any tropical country presents a huge practical problem in that Tropical Rainforests in which the vast majority of those countries' Birds dwell have bad visibility, and you must rely on your ears to account for 75% of the birds. No problem apparently (providing you are familiar with the calls of each species and each species sings or calls on its own and keeps their beak shut while the next species takes its turn singing for you). Now picture this: you are facing a chaotic melèe of a choir of maybe 500 different birds calling at the same time, spiced up with monkeys and a few frogs in some countries. Very challenging to say the least, and annoyingly frustrating most of the time. Chile is quickly becoming a prime Birding destination, with direct flights from virtually every European and North American airport, it´s also quite inexpensive for "first world" standards and Birding can be described in one word: superb. Ask for Birdfrorum members who have been to Chile, especially Central Chile, and let them give you their opinions and tell about their experiences. If you like, you can have a look at my website, www.geocities.com/aconcaguabirdingtrips to have a rough idea of what kinds of different environments you can go birding in Central Chile and what species of Birds you can expect to find. In my opinion the best time of the year is from September to May (due to the presence of Spring/Summer migrants which add to the Birds present all year), though as I´ve said before, you can enjoy fine Birding any time of the year. Please note that there´s no commercial intention in my post, but if you want to ask about my trip offers or services as a Birding Guide (or anything at all related to Birding in Chile) I´ll gladly answer your questions. I don´t think Chile is particularly more expensive than the rest of South America, and as for Birding Guides, at least in my case (I don´t know about others) fees are very down-to-earth. As for field guides, I recommend Jaramillos´ Birds of Chile, Couve/Vidal´s Birds of Patagonia and Antarctic Peninsula, or Araya´s Guía de Campo de las Aves de Chile. I don´t know Mark Pearman´s field guide, but I´ve heard through some British acquaintances that it´s fine, so maybe you can try it out too. Well, I just wanted to answer to your query and hope this information will be somehow useful to help you make your choice. Let me know if you´re coming, maybe I can help you along in other matters too.

Best regards,
Rodrigo.

In general I agree with the previous post - though people with European stomachs probably shouldn't drink the tap water in Chile (or anywhere else in Latin America for that matter). Chile is a beautiful country with some great birds. The diversity is significantly smaller than in Ecuador, Peru or so on, but on the other hand that can make birding easier. If this is pro or con Chile depends on you; do you want a relatively easy and straight forward destination with fewer birds (Chile) or do you want a destination where birding can be problematic unless you have spend some serious time practicing ID-features and voices beforehand, but is likely to get many more species? It should be mentioned that Chile is a looong country. Unless you want to spend some serious hours (days!) in busses, be prepared for internal flights. Similarly, I really wouldn't recommend Chile if you are going in the (North Hemisphere) summer = the South Hemisphere winter. Many parks in southern Chile are closet in this period and for obvious reasons may I say! It can get very cold with temperatures well below freezing.

In general Africa is problematic unless you have private transportation. In many regions safety is a serious issue; even in many parts of the "Safari Capital", Kenya, people are forced to drive in groups for security.

Having travelled extensively in South America I would recommend Ecuador for various reasons:

1) It is relatively small (unlike Peru or Brazil), but still includes several very different habitats. Frequent public transportation serves almost every destination you can imagine. If you want to see "most" of the birds (on a self-guided tour) it can be done in 2 months for Ecuador, 2-2½ for Venezuela, 3 for Peru, 5+ for Brazil etc. etc.
2) There is a good field-guide for Ecuador (unlike Peru or Brazil where you need to combine several guides to get an even remotely satisfying experiance). In addition to this there is a good and highly recommendable CD (actually, it's a DVD) for the bird voices: "Birds of Ecuador" by Niels Krabbe & Jonas Nilsson. Do realize that birding in the Neotropics often is done by ear; especially in the densely forested habitats. Many birds are also virtually impossible to see without play-back. For this purpose bring along a small recorded (mp3 or mini-disc are recommendable for this) with a series of pre-recorded tracks specific for the various habitats ("Amazon", "East Slope forest between ~900 and 2200 meters", "Polylepis Forest" etc.). Even better if you also bring a small microphone so you can make your own recordings, though this isn't part of the "essentials package".
3) Ecuador is cheap. Since the dollarization it is slightly more expensive than Peru (which again is slightly more expensive than Bolivia), but still significantly cheaper than Chile or Brazil.

Security: Latin America in general is a "macho sociaty", though somewhat less so in Chile, Argentina and southern Brazil. Be prepared for this, especially if you are a blond women travelling alone. Some lone women travellers I have met had a "wedding ring" on their finger and a photo of their "husband" in their wallet. Still, if you behave normally (ie. don't go flirting with every man you see) you are not likely to get into any serious trouble. Do your homework. These countries in general are as safe as the US. However, there certainly are a few regions or neighborhoods that are off limits (for women and men alike). Ask your embassy (or check the web-pages for the British or US foreign ministries; both are very useful in this context), follow the advice in guide-books and ask locals. Perhaps more important than all of these is COMMON SENCE. I have seen tourists walking around big cities with their massive $$$camera dangling around they neck - wonder why it gets stolen then! Both Quito (Ecuador) and Lima (Peru) has a friendly South American Explores office; both places of which I have spend countless hours just chatting with other travellers. Becoming a member of SAE cost a small fee (it works mainly with the help of volunteers). They are 100% up-to-date and great for info on security. Don't expect them to be able to provide much birding info, though. Anyway, as said, if you do your homework and use common sence, the likelyhood is that you will have no trouble at all. Do realize that relatively few people in South America speak English and learning some basic Spanish (or Portuguese for Brazil) before you leave is highly recommendable.

- And prepare for some of the best birding you will ever experiance!

Rasmus Boegh]In general I agree with the previous post - though people with European stomachs probably shouldn't drink the tap water in Chile (or anywhere else in Latin America for that matter). Chile is a beautiful country with some great birds. The diversity is significantly smaller than in Ecuador, Peru or so on, but on the other hand that can make birding easier. If this is pro or con Chile depends on you; do you want a relatively easy and straight forward destination with fewer birds (Chile) or do you want a destination where birding can be problematic unless you have spend some serious time practicing ID-features and voices beforehand, but is likely to get many more species? It should be mentioned that Chile is a looong country. Unless you want to spend some serious hours (days!) in busses, be prepared for internal flights. Similarly, I really wouldn't recommend Chile if you are going in the (North Hemisphere) summer = the South Hemisphere winter. Many parks in southern Chile are closet in this period and for obvious reasons may I say! It can get very cold with temperatures well below freezing.


I just want to craify that here in Chile there are no water problems or anything like that. All over the country the water is fine exept if the people with wells (which I have and is just fine, but there can be exeptions). Anyways going on now. You are right that Chile is a beautiful country and the birds. It is right that Chile does not have a near as much birds as Peru, Ecuador or other southamerican counrties. But it has unif (573 species).

Yes, Chile is very long and skinny but beautiful. I you can aford to go on plane around the counrty it will be a lot easier. But if you cant Chile has an exelent bus service. The best in South America (if you choose teh right one).

Actualy most parks in Chile are open in the winter but with snow (most of them because most of them are in the mauntain). And you wont see as many birds.

The temperatures do not usualy get below freezing expert in the wee morning.
But in the very south of the country it get very cold which is a must go place in Chile as also is the far north were you can see birds that come from Peru and Bolivia.

Anyways I jusy wanted to clarify this.

EDIT: I just erased some not very nice vocab and some spelling errors.

Gentlemen, please.

Dear Birder friends:
First of all I need to make a statement: the sole purpose of my previous post to this thread was to answer to a very specific question according to my opinion and furthermore according to my experience of more than 25 years Birding Chile (I won´t even mention the fact that I was born in this land and have lived my 36 years here). This post was meant to try to somehow help Faith in her decision, we all know it´s rather hard and sometimes confusing to plan a trip abroad, especially if you´ve never been there before, and when (slight) cultural differences do exist. I´m afraid this thread might degenerate into an argument or polemic issue, and since my post seems to have fueled this, I guess I have a degree of responsibility in calling things back to their natural course:

1- I´m only pointing to the fact that Birding in Southern (Temperate or Subantarctic) South America is quite different from Birding in Northern (Tropical or Equatorial) South America. I wouldn´t dare to make any judgement on whether one is "superior" or "inferior", "better" or "worse" in comparison to the other. To me such categories don´t fit in Birding, as this is a way of life I love and revere, Birding is Birding in any corner of Earth and is as wonderful and interesting as can be no matter where you are, as long as Birds are present.

2- The fact I wrote so much about Chile stems from Faith´s original inquiry and my own personal experience. I believe as a Chilean Biologist/Ornithologist/Birding Guide I´m entitled to some credit regarding my opinion about Birding in my Homeland. Nevertheless, I would hate that my opinion should be regarded as even the slightest hint of nationalism/chauvinism which I consider to be the single most execrable and dangerous form of ignorance and fanatism that has haunted mankind long before Pre-Roman times. I won´t ever stand for such a despisable thing. I´ve been birding Peru and Argentina, both beautiful neighboring countries with warm and kind people of which I keep the nicest memories both in my mind and heart, and I recommend them without reserves.

3- Dear Rasmus: I personally don´t know if you´ve been to Chile or not, but please let me straighten some things up: tap water in Chile has been fluorated and chlorinated and is distributed by a modern and reliable network at least since the`50s to even the remotest town. There are particular cases, however, when tiny rural villages are so far away from urban settlements that people use spring or well water. Despite this, and due to our temperate climate and to natural barriers (Atacama Desert and the Andes), pathogenic microorganisms, intestinal parasites or mosquitoes don´t exist in natural watercourses. That´s why you don´t have water-transmitted diseases like dysentheria and typhoid fever, or mosquito-carried diseases like malaria, paludism, yellow fever or dengue, all of which do still exist in many places within South (and North for that) America. Now about "European stomachs", as far as my knowledge as a biologist goes, all Homo sapiens digestive systems work alike and are susceptible to the same malfunctionings and diseases. Let me remind you that in many South American countries, and especially in the Southernmost region (Argentina and Chile), population is of European ascent (Spaniards, Italian, German, French, English, etc.) so I sincerely hope you are not suggesting any racial implications about digestive sensibilities. This matter is so personal and individually variable that when me and some friends traveled years ago to some other South American country I won´t mention, where tourists are repeatedly and officially warned not to drink tap water without prior boiling and filtering, I drank tap water every single day and didn´t even have a mild stomach ache. Some of my journey companions, on the other hand, suffered from heavy diarrhea, vomits, dehydration, fever and acute gastric pain accesses. Now I won´t guarantee that no tourist will ever have a stomach ache here, but sure it won´t be caused from drinking tap water. Changing subjects, as you remark and I mentioned in my first post, Chile is quite an extense strip of land more than 4000km. long. Highway systems, however, have recently undergone a vast improvement plan and are among the finest in the world. This means traveling by land is nowadays considerably faster, more comfortable and safer, not to mention the gorgeous scenery. And if time is an issue, you can always count on a well-developed and modern internal air-travel infrastructure. Finally, Wintertime severity in Chile varies much depending on latitude and altitude. In the Northern Regions it is almost non-existant, in Central Chile it is very mild (except high in the Andes Mountains) and in the Southern Regions it gets cold with rain, snowfall and temperatures sometimes reaching well below freezing point. However, I personally don´t think cold is a powerful enough reason to prevent you from Birding. I would love to know what Northern Europeans (Scandinavians like yourself, Scots or Russians) or Canadian Birders have to say about this topic. Furthermore, even though it´s true that during Southern Hemisphere Winter you won´t find most Summer visiting species, you´ll find some Austral and Antarctic winter visitors which migrate north to Central Chile from May to September. As for National Parks, they´re open year-round except particular cases of Parks located in the Southern end of Chilean Patagonia or above 3000m above sea level in the Andes, where Winter conditions cause most Birds to migrate north or down to the heartland valleys, and Birding as almost any other human activity is virtually impossible.
Anyway I sincerely thank you for your interest and contribution, I hope we exchange more birding experiences in future time, and if you ever come to Chile maybe we can go out birding together. I would love to.

4- Dear Erizzo: although I thank you for supporting my point of view as a fellow Chilean Birder, I must say I look down on offensive comments like "...where did you get all that crap..." or things like that. We must remember we Birders are a brotherhood (and sisterhood), at least I like to think that...
It´s not my intention to give you any rules either, mainly because I know you´re a very enthusiastic young man (you´re 14, right?). I´m not saying I´m a wise man at 36, but I have lived more than twice your lifetime and Life has taught me a thing or two, among them treating people with respect. Let me also tell you you´re NOT "about the only Chilean Birder". I don´t want you to feel bad however, I still look forward to meeting you sometime and go birding together. Keep in touch. I´m sure I would learn a thing or two from you, too.

5- Dear Faith (Sea Wanderer): I just wish you the best of luck in your birding trip, wherever you choose to go will be the best choice. Give my regards to the Isles of Albion, home of such an old and fine Birding tradition and so many devoted and inspired Birders. Dieu et Mon Droit.

Ok fellows, thanks for the patience if you have taken the time to read this long post, don´t mean to bore you at all. I think it´s crucial to keep a truly friendly comradeship. Happy Birding to you all.

Rodrigo.

Sorry Rodrigo if I messed everything up here. But I guess I got a bit caried away with my chilenismos. And I hope I didnt ofend you eather Rasmus.
I'm sorry to say that until now I havent met any chilean birders. The closest that I have gotten is a Park Ranger that realy isnt a birder.I guesS I'll hace to change my signature. Though I have a gringo birder friend in Santiago.
I understand that you are doble my age and know a lot more than me and I hope I can meet you some day and learn some thing too.
That day will come some time.

Well now it's all back to normal so we can talk right (so IIIII can talk right).

Motmot said:

Hi Faith, same happened to me!
In four years in Costa Rica I had no robberies. Only robbed once in Barcelona, Spain in 10 years there. Also cleaned up at a hotel in Nairobi. No problems while in Venezuela, Ecuador, Panama, El Salvador, Mexico or Argentina. It's not that bad, normal precautions usually work.

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Spent over three years birding in Africa and it is totally amazing, plus of course the mammals are second to none. Also spent time in South America and the birding is mindblowing, so take your choice, you can't be wrong

As goes safety, it's the old tale ...everywhere can be as safe or as dangerous as everywhere else, take normal precautions and I think either Africa or South America would be excellant. That said in travelling to almost 100 countries I've only ever been robbed twice... but both times fairly dramatically - swopped my binoculars for multiple machete cuts in Kenya and had the pleasure of the company of one pleasant bunch of men in El Salvador who hijacked the bus I was on with grenades and guns, needless to say, bye bye more binoculars. Put into context, I've spent literally thousands of hours wandering deserted and not-so-deserted spots throughout countries as diverse as Sudan, Ethiopia, Nicaragua, etc etc and you'll see it's not so bad.

Would agree with Tim's comment in one thread - maybe wandering around with a telescope is inviting attention, which probably is just curiosity, but still gets in the way of birding. In my opinion, scopes are not so vital to many of these destinations.

Good travelling ...and hey if's its totally safe, it means you're still in bed at home!!

Apologies for re-opening this thread, but I have been offline for a while. Still I feel a need to comment on the tap-water in Chile.

erizzo said:

And I hope I didnt ofend you eather Rasmus.

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Nope, you certainly didn't offend me, even though I wasn't too pleased about the part that has now been changed. As said, it has been changed, so I see no reason to comment further on that.

First, in case my previous post left any doubts, birding in Chile is amazing and well worth the trip. I believe most who have visited Chile will agree on this part.

Originally, I made my comment on tap-water on basis of personal experience as a visitor (last time I visited Chile was ~1½ year ago) and what guide-books say. I obviously don’t think “European stomachs” are different than “South American stomachs” (and there were certainly absolutely NO racism intended in case anybody misunderstood this; I genuinely love South America and have spend roughly 50% of the last three years in this part of the World). I used "European stomachs" as a fast and non-scientific way of explaining that tolerance (immunity) towards various bacteria etc. is different, often resulting in the well-known travellers' diarrhoea for people who visit far-away countries. As I wanted to be able to elaborate the following further I asked an uncle of mine who has a Ph.D. in Tropical Medicine and also practice as such on the largest hospital in Denmark; Rigshospitalet. It should be menioned that Tropical Medicine is a poor term as it is in no way limited to “tropical”; in reality it covers the various types of diseases that are not normally associated with the country of residence (Denmark). He was kind enough to give a lengthy explanations filled with numbers so we have something to relate to. I have tried to keep the scientific language at a fair level, so it should be digestible and not that boring :

Water in Chile generally relatively clean especially in larger cities where it usually is heavily treated with chemicals to kill various viruses (vira) and bacteria. For this reason north Europeans may think it taste a bit “weird” compared to the tap-water we are used to, however it is generally considered harmless. This is not unique to Chile, but is common practise in large cities throughout Latin America. Via this chemical treatment, the amount of pathogenic bacteria and viruses often is no higher than in northern Europe. However, the amount of pathogens is not the problem. The actual problem is that the strains (“variations”) found in Chile are not the same found in northern Europe. This means that we, North Europeans, don’t have a natural resistance (as the locals do) to these viruses or bacteria. This is especially obvious in bacteria with a high rate of mutations such as E. coli, Salmonella, Shigella, Yersinia and Clostridium; all of which can give diarrhoea in humans. Furthermore, achieved immunity (Ig-based) against viruses normally is specific without cross-resistance, meaning that even small variations can be of great importance rendering the “original” immunization largely useless. In terms of travellers' diarrhoea many groups are important, but worth mentioning are the various Rota Virus, Norfolk Virus("-group") and the enterotoxins from E. coli (= not the bacteria itself; the toxins it produce). A relatively small amount is needed of the above to make you ill and for this reason they are considered a risk in tap-water. Furthermore, none of them are removed efficiently via the usual treatment of water, be that chemical or mechanical. For these reasons a large percentage of travellers' diarrhoea are the results of exposure to those groups. It should be mentioned that in normal, healthy adults these pathogens usually don’t cause serious illness that needs treatment - just a few days in bed. But… if you visit beautiful Chile for the typical 10-14 days, do you really want to spend two or three days in bed? The most recent numbers (1995-99) indicate that 26% of north Europeans (survey included people from Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, Holland & England) who visit Chile will get travellers’ diarrhoea. For comparison the average for visits to Latin America is significantly higher at 38%, while visits to the Mediterranean region results in travellers’ diarrhoea in between 3 and 18% (depending on the exact region). Obviously many of these cases are not due to pathogens in the tap-water. There appear to be four main reasons why people get travellers’ diarrhoea: 1) Pathogens in food, 2) Pathogens in water, 3) Direct transfer of pathogens via contact with other humans & 4) Different food and drinking habits than we are used to (i.e. not pathogen related).
As a traveller you will need to eat, you will need to shower, you will have contact with other humans and the food/drinks will be different from what you are used to. But why not remove the risk from tap-water? Especially as it is easily done by buying certified water on bottles - this also being recommended by guide-books. Even more so as birders usually spend a significant time away from cities in areas where treatment of tap-water is minimal or even non-existent. In such areas Chile has had recent sporadic cases of Cholera (so far very localized in Chile, but apparently on the rise throughout South America) and Typhoid (relatively widespread, esp. December-March); both of which to a large extent are spread by contaminated water. Both of these are also mentioned on the homepage of the Foreign & Commonwealth Office (http://www.fco.gov.uk) under "travel advice - health" for Chile.

Above should not deter anybody from visiting Chile, and, as obvious from the figures given (combined with previous comments in regards of Dengue, Malaria etc.), Chile is significantly safer than Latin America in general - not that pathogens present a large problem anywhere in Latin America as long as you take the needed precautions...

Thanks Rasmus. It now all clear to me what you intended to say or what you said and I didnt understand it well. Anyways sorry about getting so patriatic in that posts a while back.

Thanks all contributors for a most informative thread. I've learned alot! Now, will I go to Peru, Chile or India?!

Dear Rasmus:

You´re absolutely right, and very well informed, by the way.
Hope we can meet each other on your next visit to Chile.