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swarovision EL (1 Viewer)

How do the 8x32 Nikon SE and 8x42 Ultravid BR fare in the "rolling ball" department? I thought I noticed it with my Ultravids one time when panning along a mountain ridge. I don't do a lot of panning along a horizon line so it isn't a big issue to me, but I did notice it that time.

John

As one who is sensitive to "rolling ball," and who could even see it in the 8x42 and 10x42 LX when the bins were stationary ("still life ball :), I find panning with the 8x32 SE is fairly smooth.

The 8x32 LX has a bit more "rolling ball" than the SE, but not nearly as much the full sized LXs/LX Ls, which have no pincushion.

I thought I was really sensitive to this effect until I read where a BF member reported that even the lesser amount of "rolling ball" in the 8x32 LX made him nauseous. He would have "hurled" panning with the full sized LXs for sure!

The issue I do have with the SE while panning is "rolling brownouts".

As I pan, the image "winks" in and out as I turn, not enough to completely blackout the image but enough to dim it. If you turned your head and repeatedly alternated between squinting and opening your eyes wide open, you'd reproduce the effect.

From what I've read about Leicas, what you are probably experiencing is "rolling saddle" from pincushion. That is, the image scrolls over a negatively curved surface rather than a positively curved surface, as if you cut the ball in half and were looking at images projected on the inside surface of the ball.

However, the net effect is the same, the image scrolls over a curved surface and pulls your attention from the landscape to the optics.

Like Baby Bear's porridge, optical distortion and lack of distortion need to be balanced "just right" so that the optics don't get in the way of the views.

But it depends on one's perceptual awareness. I've given bins to friends to use and I explained how to adjust the right diopter and central focuser, but a couple of them have just used them without making any adjustments and thought the images looked "just fine" even though I know their diopter adjustment is different than mine and that the DOF isn't enough to get sharp images at medium and long distance w/out at least a tweak of the central focuser.

Not everybody pays attention to optics the way we "optics nerds" do.

To achieve a good balance btwn distortion and lack of distortion in bins, and still achieve other features you desire such as a WF, long ER, good close focus, you usually need to make some compromises.

The bin that you can afford and that has compromises you can live with is the best bin for you, and it doesn't necessarily have to be "the latest and greatest" bin out there.
 
Thats good news then .

keep up the updates John :t:

We had some rare nice weather here today in the Pacific Northwest and it was the sun came out and stayed out most of the day in a very long time.
So given the nice conditions I decided to take the new 8.5x42 Swarovision ELs out today and try them at some different scenic locations and also to compare them to another binocular that I have, the Leica 7x42 Ultravids.

At the end of the day I came away even more impressed with the new ELs than I was the other day when I wrote my previous post. In addition to being sharp across the whole field, having great ergonomics and being virtually free of chromatic aberration, what impressed me the most about them is how clear they are (i.e., the glass does not seem to be there) and how well their coatings suppress glare and internal reflections.

Several times today I had the experience of looking at object/field with the 7x42s and having the light/glare from the sun partially wash out the quality of the view that those binoculars are otherwise capable of providing. But then when I'd switch back to the new ELs the glare would be gone and I'd see a lot more details. And the degree of difference/improvement that I'm talking about here was not just noticeable, but was quite significant.

I also used the ELs today at three different locations (i.e., at the ocean, in a river canyon with rapidly flowing and churning white water, and from atop a lookout where I could pan along the crest of the Cascade mountain range (with its many jagged peaks and snow covered volcanoes) for a distance of around 200 miles. The views were all great and I was also pleased by the fact that I still did not notice any rolling ball effect while I was using them.
 
Hello everybody....new swarovski EL 8.5x 42 or 10x42...which one do you prefer???

Is it only me or is there anyone else out in binocular land who find the strap lugs on the 8.5's annoying. Everytime the binoculars are raised the lugs catch on your first finger.
 
Is it only me or is there anyone else out in binocular land who find the strap lugs on the 8.5's annoying. Everytime the binoculars are raised the lugs catch on your first finger.

not really had a problem with the position of them but they could have been better designed , the zeiss nightowl and leica trinovid are better in that department.

zeiss really dropped the ball with the old victory binocular though , you know the ones which clipped on the lugs and bit into your hands LOL . B :)
 
Took delivery of my Swarovision 8.5x42 today, but couldn´t get to play with them till after dark. Will post at more length about them tomorrow, and take them for a shoot-out with my Nikon EII 8x30, for no particular reason as they´re not even similar binoculars. Initial reactions - very comfortable grip, more like my old EL 8x32 than my "old" EL 8.5x42. Narrow barrels suit my hands, and they feel lighter, even if there´s not that much weight difference. I don´t see a problem with the lug-positioning. Edge-to-edge sharpness incredible (although to be honest, this isn´t a deal-breaker for me; as wise BF member Bitterntwisted once pointed out to me, we only really use the central one degree of FOV anyway, the rest is peripheral...so the sharpness of the outer edges is no big deal). Very, very comfortable and easy view through those wide oculars. Accessories? I switched the lens-guard for an old rubber one from Bressers, I just don´t like the hard plastic Swaro EL ones. Bag? It´s the case that stays on the lanyard, which I´m not crazy about, so they´re sleeping in a Bresser bag at the moment. I´ll be in a position to play properly with them tomorrow morning, and will update. I´m particularly interested to check for "rolling-ball" effect, as I´ve no idea what it is. Although I recently got, in a pair of Opticron DBA Oasis compacts, the most amazing effect as I panned....it was as if the entire view were a goldfish bowl which one was rotating horizontally as one panned....brilliant. I could amuse myself for hours.
 
Took delivery of my Swarovision 8.5x42 today, but couldn´t get to play with them till after dark. Will post at more length about them tomorrow, and take them for a shoot-out with my Nikon EII 8x30, for no particular reason as they´re not even similar binoculars. Initial reactions - very comfortable grip, more like my old EL 8x32 than my "old" EL 8.5x42. Narrow barrels suit my hands, and they feel lighter, even if there´s not that much weight difference. I don´t see a problem with the lug-positioning. Edge-to-edge sharpness incredible (although to be honest, this isn´t a deal-breaker for me; as wise BF member Bitterntwisted once pointed out to me, we only really use the central one degree of FOV anyway, the rest is peripheral...so the sharpness of the outer edges is no big deal). Very, very comfortable and easy view through those wide oculars. Accessories? I switched the lens-guard for an old rubber one from Bressers, I just don´t like the hard plastic Swaro EL ones. Bag? It´s the case that stays on the lanyard, which I´m not crazy about, so they´re sleeping in a Bresser bag at the moment. I´ll be in a position to play properly with them tomorrow morning, and will update. I´m particularly interested to check for "rolling-ball" effect, as I´ve no idea what it is. Although I recently got, in a pair of Opticron DBA Oasis compacts, the most amazing effect as I panned....it was as if the entire view were a goldfish bowl which one was rotating horizontally as one panned....brilliant. I could amuse myself for hours.

hi sancho

glad you got them at last LOL ! .
If you have a clear sky tonight why not give them a whirl and look at some stars . ;)
 
hi sancho

glad you got them at last LOL ! .
If you have a clear sky tonight why not give them a whirl and look at some stars . ;)
Thanks Ingle! Yes, I did that, looked at my feet, and then Jupiter, and did it in just under two turns of the focus-wheel.
 
I´m particularly interested to check for "rolling-ball" effect, as I´ve no idea what it is. Although I recently got, in a pair of Opticron DBA Oasis compacts, the most amazing effect as I panned....it was as if the entire view were a goldfish bowl which one was rotating horizontally as one panned....brilliant. I could amuse myself for hours.

Seems like you can already see the rolling ball effect ;)

At least your test has a control!
 
Took delivery of my Swarovision 8.5x42 today, but couldn´t get to play with them till after dark. Will post at more length about them tomorrow, and take them for a shoot-out with my Nikon EII 8x30, for no particular reason as they´re not even similar binoculars. Initial reactions - very comfortable grip, more like my old EL 8x32 than my "old" EL 8.5x42. Narrow barrels suit my hands, and they feel lighter, even if there´s not that much weight difference. I don´t see a problem with the lug-positioning. Edge-to-edge sharpness incredible (although to be honest, this isn´t a deal-breaker for me; as wise BF member Bitterntwisted once pointed out to me, we only really use the central one degree of FOV anyway, the rest is peripheral...so the sharpness of the outer edges is no big deal). Very, very comfortable and easy view through those wide oculars. Accessories? I switched the lens-guard for an old rubber one from Bressers, I just don´t like the hard plastic Swaro EL ones. Bag? It´s the case that stays on the lanyard, which I´m not crazy about, so they´re sleeping in a Bresser bag at the moment. I´ll be in a position to play properly with them tomorrow morning, and will update. I´m particularly interested to check for "rolling-ball" effect, as I´ve no idea what it is. Although I recently got, in a pair of Opticron DBA Oasis compacts, the most amazing effect as I panned....it was as if the entire view were a goldfish bowl which one was rotating horizontally as one panned....brilliant. I could amuse myself for hours.

Congratulations Sancho! I'llbe very interested to read your impressions. Mine are enroute so I'll have them by middle of net week.
 
I was able to compare both the 10x42 and 8.5x42 Swarovision EL's against the 'old' EL's over the weekend. Here are my observations/thoughts;

Size/feel -
As the 8.5's are now shorter (same as 10's) this made them more attractive to me as a proposition than before. I think for this reason the 8.5's did feel lighter than the previous EL's, but I couldn't really tell with the 10's as they are about the same size as before. I accept both are thinner barrelled, but this didn't really bother me. I did prefer the deeper thumb indent at the back with the old EL's but only slightly. The broader focusing wheel on the new EL's didn't really affect me either way.

Rolling ball effect -
I tried hard to see this although I'm not sure what I was looking for! I could see a slight 'movement' of the image, particularly when looking at artificial features, when panning slowly, but I was already getting used to this (naturally compensating for it?) during my testing and certainly wasn't bothered by it. Speaking with the dealer about this issue he said that this was very noticable with the prototype, but not with the final product.

Image -
Having tested the Leica Ultravids vs old EL's about 6 months ago and decided not to upgrade my Zeiss Classics at the time I have to say I am delighted to have waited. Then I believe the Leica's were very marginally sharper and brighter, although I would probably still have gone for the EL's as they are simply such a joy to hold (in my opinion none of the other top makes come close on ergonomics or style), but with either I didn't feel the optical improvement was worth it, plus I knew the new EL's would be coming out soon.
The new EL's were stunning. They were noticably brighter, the edge to edge sharpness was crisper than I've seen before, I could see the wider field of view and most surprising of all and for me the real clincher was the depth of field was considerably improved. Not only do they focus down to your feet, but on both the 8.5's and 10's I found that I was not having to strain as much and/or re-focus. With the old EL's I got also got a halo effect around the outside of the image, this has gone with the new EL's. I was preparing myself to be disappointed by the new EL's, particularly in view of the extra cost, but they are something special.

I bought a pair of the 10x42s and I'm delighted (apart from the price of course!). See you in the field.....
 
10x42 EL Swarovision

I have been using the new swaros for about a week now in a variety of situations - sorting out gulls on my local reservoir, in fields and woodlands. I have owned lots of binos in my time - Leicas, Zeiss, Nikons, etc. and i can say with complete honesty that these are the most impressive binos that I have ever owned. I also own a pair of 8x42 Zeiss FLs and they are really good, but they are not as impressive as the swaros. Their "handleability", balance and optics are, IMO, better than anything else out there. The "rolling ball" thing is a non issue so far as I am concerned.B :)
 
I have been using the new swaros for about a week now in a variety of situations - sorting out gulls on my local reservoir, in fields and woodlands. I have owned lots of binos in my time - Leicas, Zeiss, Nikons, etc. and i can say with complete honesty that these are the most impressive binos that I have ever owned. I also own a pair of 8x42 Zeiss FLs and they are really good, but they are not as impressive as the swaros. Their "handleability", balance and optics are, IMO, better than anything else out there. The "rolling ball" thing is a non issue so far as I am concerned.B :)

someone mentioned Leica will have similar products coming out next year. Will they top Swarovision in both quality and price?
 
Okay, I´ve used mine in a variety of situations and lighting conditions now, and can give my inexpert opinion. I stacked them up against my personal fave "best optics I´ve ever owned" bins, the Nikon EII 8x30.

I compared my original (2009) 8.5x EL´s to the EII´s last year, many times, in many conditions. The optical superiority of the EII´s was always pretty obvious, even if marginal or unnoticeable to most (sane) people. Although the (2009) EL´s had a relaxed and easy view, when I switched from EII´s to EL´s, I always felt a slight but noticeable "softening" of the image.

And now the good news. With the New EL´s, I can´t detect any meaningful softening from the EII´s to the EL´s. I can´t say the EL´s are better, but neither can I say they´re worse. They´re a little different, the colour rendition seems more natural, whereas the EII´s give a warm glow, especially highlighting reds and browns, for examply on conifer bark or withered heather on a nearby hillside.

The EL "flat field" thing is impressive. Very, very sharp all the way across, no need to re-focus at the edges. The EII´s obviously have and extra 1.2 degrees of field, so you´re seeing as much "sharp" FOV with them. But the narrower field of the new EL´s seems wider because of the clarity, and for the first time ever, when I switch to the EII´s, my eyes can detect the softness at the edges when I´m viewing through the centre. (This is meaningless for birding, however - I don´t use the periphery of the field unless I detect motion in it, and then pan to centre).

I looked for "rolling ball", but could only get a very, very small amount of it, and I had to try, and also to pan very quickly and steadily across a wide field to get it at all. My Opticron DBA Oasis compacts give far more "rolling ball", and even in those it doesn´t bother me because it only happens with fast panning. But I finally "get" rolling ball, because in comparison my EII´s show none at all.

The CA in the new EL´s is very slight also, less than in the old ones, IMHO. I got a little lateral fringing when viewing the horizon of a hill against a bright winter sky, at very the top of the field (a little pink/purple), and the bottom (a little green/blue). I couldn´t detect any CA against the same sky from backlit winter tree branches. And the EII´s showed as much, or a little more.

In normal daylight, the EII´s were a little brighter, or so they seemed, but it was marginal and this may have been the result of the slightly lesser magnification and warmer image. At dusk (and I mean really dusk, half an hour after sundown), the new EL´s were brighter...but not by much.

I tried to produce glare by (foolishly) swinging the view close to a low, bright winter sun. There was a little bit of halo-ing at the bottom of the field in both bins, with a slight advantage going to the EII´s. But this was only so close to the sun that apart from "serious nerdy optics-research", only a lunatic would attempt it.

I tried an amateurish resolution comparison, which was pointless because of the magnification difference between the EL´s and the EII´s. I set up a magazine page involving a colour photo and black text on a music stand at 20m, and tried to read it and study the photo with each bino. Obviously the new EL´s won out, by a considerable margin, because of that extra half degree of mag. No slur on the EII´s there.

Close focus on my pair of new EL´s is 130cm. (My EII´s are about 215cm).
Close focus to infinity takes just under two turns. But for general birding, from say 10m to 1km, it´s very fast, about a quarter turn. I don´t understand this, but I´m happy with it.

They feel like the "old" EL 8x32 in my hand. I couldn´t really get a full grip round the barrel of the 2009 EL 8.5x, but I can with the new version. The narrowing of the barrel makes a big difference for me. The rubber armouring all round the barrel is very comfortable too, although I thought it wouldn´t make much difference.

The depth of field is very satisfactory, but I don´t really know how to measure it. The Nikon EII´s retain a huge edge (no nikon pun intended) in terms of their beautiful "3D" effect.

Downsides of the new EL:

I don´t like the rainguard on the oculars, it´s still the hard plastic hinged version. So I switched it for my "default" rainguard, soft rubber from a pair of cheap Bressers.

The focussing wheel is a little "sticky" at close focus, but I assume this will smoothen (is that a real verb?) with wear.

The eyecups don´t have click-stops. The eye-relief is very long, which is great, except my little round-wire "dedicated birding spectacles" don´t need that much, and when the eyecups slide in, as they do with use, I can sometims get little momentary black shadows in the centre-field. I´d prefer if the eyecups had stops so I could set them a little further out from "full-in". Nothing a little blu-tack or duct-tape won´t sort out. Or I´ll simply have to bird with my regular daytime spectacles. Which aren´t half as intellectual-looking as my Ghandhi specs. (One has an image to maintain, don´t you know).

(Another downside is that if I now own the perfect roof (new EL), and the perfect porro (EII), I have no need to browse optics forums and have created a gaping hole in my life that needs filling. Perhaps I´ll go read a book.)



Summary:

If you want ´em, and can afford ´em, or (like me) have enough unused binos stashed away in a cupboard to fund ´em, these new EL´s are really, really superb. If you want world-class optics but can´t afford new EL´s, and don´t need waterproofing, or top-notch open-roof ergonomics, and like 3D, then get a pair of Nikon EII 8x30 and save 1,500 euro. Either way you get top-class optics. But I do think my bino-buying days are over now that I have the new EL´s (no laughing down the back). Caveat: all the above is my opinion/reaction only, and I stress that I'm not expert.
 
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Okay, I´ve used mine in a variety of situations and lighting conditions now, and can give my inexpert opinion. I stacked them up against my personal fave "best optics I´ve ever owned" bins, the Nikon EII 8x30.

I compared my original (2009) 8.5x EL´s to the EII´s last year, many times, in many conditions. The optical superiority of the EII´s was always pretty obvious, even if marginal or unnoticeable to most (sane) people. Although the (2009) EL´s had a relaxed and easy view, when I switched from EII´s to EL´s, I always felt a slight but noticeable "softening" of the image.

And now the good news. With the New EL´s, I can´t detect any meaningful softening from the EII´s to the EL´s. I can´t say the EL´s are better, but neither can I say they´re worse. They´re a little different, the colour rendition seems more natural, whereas the EII´s give a warm glow, especially highlighting reds and browns, for examply on conifer bark or withered heather on a nearby hillside.

The EL "flat field" thing is impressive. Very, very sharp all the way across, no need to re-focus at the edges. The EII´s obviously have and extra 1.2 degrees of field, so you´re seeing as much "sharp" FOV with them. But the narrower field of the new EL´s seems wider because of the clarity, and for the first time ever, when I switch to the EII´s, my eyes can detect the softness at the edges when I´m viewing through the centre. (This is meaningless for birding, however - I don´t use the periphery of the field unless I detect motion in it, and then pan to centre).

I looked for "rolling ball", but could only get a very, very small amount of it, and I had to try, and also to pan very quickly and steadily across a wide field to get it at all. My Opticron DBA Oasis compacts give far more "rolling ball", and even in those it doesn´t bother me because it only happens with fast panning. But I finally "get" rolling ball, because in comparison my EII´s show none at all.

The CA in the new EL´s is very slight also, less than in the old ones, IMHO. I got a little lateral fringing when viewing the horizon of a hill against a bright winter sky, at very the top of the field (a little pink/purple), and the bottom (a little green/blue). I couldn´t detect any CA against the same sky from backlit winter tree branches. And the EII´s showed as much, or a little more.

In normal daylight, the EII´s were a little brighter, or so they seemed, but it was marginal and this may have been the result of the slightly lesser magnification and warmer image. At dusk (and I mean really dusk, half an hour after sundown), the new EL´s were brighter...but not by much.

I tried to produce glare by (foolishly) swinging the view close to a low, bright winter sun. There was a little bit of halo-ing at the bottom of the field in both bins, with a slight advantage going to the EII´s. But this was only so close to the sun that apart from "serious nerdy optics-research", only a lunatic would attempt it.

I tried an amateurish resolution comparison, which was pointless because of the magnification difference between the EL´s and the EII´s. I set up a magazine page involving a colour photo and black text on a music stand at 20m, and tried to read it and study the photo with each bino. Obviously the new EL´s won out, by a considerable margin, because of that extra half degree of mag. No slur on the EII´s there.

Close focus on my pair of new EL´s is 130cm. (My EII´s are about 215cm).
Close focus to infinity takes just under two turns. But for general birding, from say 10m to 1km, it´s very fast, about a quarter turn. I don´t understand this, but I´m happy with it.

They feel like the "old" EL 8x32 in my hand. I couldn´t really get a full grip round the barrel of the 2009 EL 8.5x, but I can with the new version. The narrowing of the barrel makes a big difference for me. The rubber armouring all round the barrel is very comfortable too, although I thought it wouldn´t make much difference.

The depth of field is very satisfactory, but I don´t really know how to measure it. The Nikon EII´s retain a huge edge (no nikon pun intended) in terms of their beautiful "3D" effect.

Downsides of the new EL:

I don´t like the rainguard on the oculars, it´s still the hard plastic hinged version. So I switched it for my "default" rainguard, soft rubber from a pair of cheap Bressers.

The focussing wheel is a little "sticky" at close focus, but I assume this will smoothen (is that a real verb?) with wear.

The eyecups don´t have click-stops. The eye-relief is very long, which is great, except my little round-wire "dedicated birding spectacles" don´t need that much, and when the eyecups slide in, as they do with use, I can sometims get little momentary black shadows in the centre-field. I´d prefer if the eyecups had stops so I could set them a little further out from "full-in". Nothing a little blu-tack or duct-tape won´t sort out. Or I´ll simply have to bird with my regular daytime spectacles. Which aren´t half as intellectual-looking as my Ghandhi specs. (One has an image to maintain, don´t you know).

(Another downside is that if I now own the perfect roof (new EL), and the perfect porro (EII), I have no need to browse optics forums and have created a gaping hole in my life that needs filling. Perhaps I´ll go read a book.)



Summary:

If you want ´em, and can afford ´em, or (like me) have enough unused binos stashed away in a cupboard to fund ´em, these new EL´s are really, really superb. If you want world-class optics but can´t afford new EL´s, and don´t need waterproofing, or top-notch open-roof ergonomics, and like 3D, then get a pair of Nikon EII 8x30 and save 1,500 euro. Either way you get top-class optics. But I do think my bino-buying days are over now that I have the new EL´s (no laughing down the back). Caveat: all the above is my opinion/reaction only, and I stress that I'm not expert.

hello sancho

an interesting review , how did you find them at looking at the night sky by the way ? .

reading your review certainly makes me glad i bought the nikon 8x30 EII the other month , praise indeed when it can near hold its own with the heir apparent , for a very modest price ... :t:
 
"The eyecups don´t have click-stops. The eye-relief is very long, which is great, except my little round-wire "dedicated birding spectacles" don´t need that much, and when the eyecups slide in, as they do with use, I can sometims get little momentary black shadows in the centre-field. I´d prefer if the eyecups had stops so I could set them a little further out from "full-in".

Sancho,

This was exactly what I saw, trying the new 8.5x42 ELs for the second time last week.

The eyecups on the new EL do have a midpoint detent; however, when this detent is selected, I can't see the whole field. The lowest eyecup setting seems to require exact fiddling with the IPD and eye placement in order to avoid kidney bean blackouts, or the effect you describe (perhaps because of the relatively thin Nikon "W" lenses in my eyeglasses).

Its faults aside, the eyecups on the Zeiss FL has several intermediate detents, the first of which works well for me.

How difficult would it be for Swarovski to improve the eyecups?

Mike
 
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