While Frank's post on "near alpha" binoculars is generating interesting discussion, including what constitutes an "alpha binocular", I would like to ask for a little clarification of a different sort. At what price point can you get close enough on all or most attributes to say a pair of binoculars is close to the best? I may be reading this wrong, but based on reviews, it seems there is a price point "sweet spot" between $300-400 (street price) where the claim of "near alpha" becomes more common (Zeiss Terra, Meopta Meopro, Pentax DCF CS, etc.) Of binoculars that cost 30% less (say $200-250), the claim seems much less common. What do you think?
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Price point "sweet spot"? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter paul2013
- Start date
I can speak for the Zeiss Terra but not the others. It's a very good binocular and well worth what it sells for. It differs from the alphas in 3 significant ways.
1. It's construction is crude compared to an alpha. Rubber covering, eye cups and such.
2. It's field of view is not as wide by about half a degree at least although it has a very generous sweet spot.
3. It is not as bright overall. It doesn't have di-electric prisms but has a form of "ED" glass. Brightness maximum is in the center of visible spectrum.
On a minor issue it had an industrial/chemical odor to it when I got it that took a week to dissipate.
It is obvious that Zeiss concentrated on bringing out a low cost binocular with very good optics which would sell at an economical price and they were successful in doing this. The Meopta MeoPro is in this price range too as is the Pentax DCF CS which I note is on sale at Eagle Optics and is sold out.
Bob
1. It's construction is crude compared to an alpha. Rubber covering, eye cups and such.
2. It's field of view is not as wide by about half a degree at least although it has a very generous sweet spot.
3. It is not as bright overall. It doesn't have di-electric prisms but has a form of "ED" glass. Brightness maximum is in the center of visible spectrum.
On a minor issue it had an industrial/chemical odor to it when I got it that took a week to dissipate.
It is obvious that Zeiss concentrated on bringing out a low cost binocular with very good optics which would sell at an economical price and they were successful in doing this. The Meopta MeoPro is in this price range too as is the Pentax DCF CS which I note is on sale at Eagle Optics and is sold out.
Bob
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Thanks for the reply Bob.
Another way to state the question (that leaves out the comparison with the "alphas") might be this: At what price point on the (real) price vs quality curve does the shoulder begin, where more investment leads to diminishing returns, and what binoculars are at that price point?
Personally I'm looking at the Bushnell 8x42 Legend Ultra HD, Meopro, Terra and a couple of others (maybe ZRS HD 8x42), but I'm also interested in the more general assessment of where that shoulder lies. It seems a somewhat different approach than many of the posts I've read here that begin with a price limit (i.e., "What's the best binocular for under $200?")
Another way to state the question (that leaves out the comparison with the "alphas") might be this: At what price point on the (real) price vs quality curve does the shoulder begin, where more investment leads to diminishing returns, and what binoculars are at that price point?
Personally I'm looking at the Bushnell 8x42 Legend Ultra HD, Meopro, Terra and a couple of others (maybe ZRS HD 8x42), but I'm also interested in the more general assessment of where that shoulder lies. It seems a somewhat different approach than many of the posts I've read here that begin with a price limit (i.e., "What's the best binocular for under $200?")
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eitanaltman
Well-known member
Bob is pretty spot on, except for the fact that there is no apostrophe in "its" 
(Also Bob I'm pretty sure that the Terra has di-electric prism coatings, it was stated in one of the thread from a Zeiss rep)
I'm sure you will soon hear from the defensive alpha owners who claim such claims are specious, and the thread will degenerate into contentious debate, but sticking strictly to centerfield optics I think you are correct that the $300-400 range is the "shoulder" of the price/performance curve really lies. There are exceptions of course, as there are some exceptional values around $200ish (Bushnell Legend Ultra, Zen-Ray ZRS, etc), but at that $300-400 level there are a ton of really excellent binoculars that will be more than good enough to show you what you need to see when looking at a bird on axis.
The more expensive binoculars will have wider sweet spots, better corrected edges, and of course superior build quality and overall QC.
(Also Bob I'm pretty sure that the Terra has di-electric prism coatings, it was stated in one of the thread from a Zeiss rep)
I'm sure you will soon hear from the defensive alpha owners who claim such claims are specious, and the thread will degenerate into contentious debate, but sticking strictly to centerfield optics I think you are correct that the $300-400 range is the "shoulder" of the price/performance curve really lies. There are exceptions of course, as there are some exceptional values around $200ish (Bushnell Legend Ultra, Zen-Ray ZRS, etc), but at that $300-400 level there are a ton of really excellent binoculars that will be more than good enough to show you what you need to see when looking at a bird on axis.
The more expensive binoculars will have wider sweet spots, better corrected edges, and of course superior build quality and overall QC.
Steve C
Well-known member
The first sweet spot we hit nowadays is likely at the $250 or so level. After that there is another topping around $600, with little apparent difference in good $450 glass. After that there are two basic points, one around $1,000, the next point generally topping at $2,000 +.
In my opinion, the optics become less of an issue at the $600 point. What you get from there on up is generally somewhat better glass and coatings. There are some fairly obvious places corners will be cut, Bob mentioned lesser quality rubber armor. The focusers are generally not as sophisticated and the diopter adjustments may be somewhat more crude. That is not to say as a blanket indictment that they are poorly built. They just are not as well built, or built well enough to satisfy the ego of some users. They don't have some sort of (however you choose to define it) panache, bling, sophistication...etc to satisfy some.
One can easily be satisfied at $600 or less, unless you have some desire to obsess over the brand panache.
In my opinion, the optics become less of an issue at the $600 point. What you get from there on up is generally somewhat better glass and coatings. There are some fairly obvious places corners will be cut, Bob mentioned lesser quality rubber armor. The focusers are generally not as sophisticated and the diopter adjustments may be somewhat more crude. That is not to say as a blanket indictment that they are poorly built. They just are not as well built, or built well enough to satisfy the ego of some users. They don't have some sort of (however you choose to define it) panache, bling, sophistication...etc to satisfy some.
One can easily be satisfied at $600 or less, unless you have some desire to obsess over the brand panache.
Thanks for the replies. If you had to rank the following, how would they stack up against one another?
Terra
Legend Ultra HD
ZRS HD
Meopro
(all 8x4X)
Anything else worthwhile in that $250-400 price range (that's waterproof)?
On the subject or price vs quality, it might be helpful to graph and scale (i.e. quality on a 1-10 scale, price on a 10-1 scale) binoculars for people looking for purchase advice. Has this been done before on BF?
Terra
Legend Ultra HD
ZRS HD
Meopro
(all 8x4X)
Anything else worthwhile in that $250-400 price range (that's waterproof)?
On the subject or price vs quality, it might be helpful to graph and scale (i.e. quality on a 1-10 scale, price on a 10-1 scale) binoculars for people looking for purchase advice. Has this been done before on BF?
eitanaltman
Well-known member
I know it's human nature to want to "rank" everything and declare a winner, but the truth is they are all excellent. Just different packages. It really depends on your needs and priorities.
The ZRS and the Legend offer very wide FOV's, but trade that off for greater edge distortion and curvature/pincushion. The Terra sacrifices FOV to the Bushnell and Zen-Ray, but trades that off for a better corrected FOV off axis. But in terms of general characteristics on axis (brightness, resolution, etc) they are all probably within spitting distance of each other. The Terra is also at a higher price point and thus offers superior build and mechanics, such as its butter smooth focus knob, solid eyecup rotation, etc. I assume the same is true for the Meopro, being at a higher price point like the Terra and also with a more modest FOV; although it's the only one I haven't used, Meopta has a great reputation and I trust the reviews of those who have tried Meopros and reported excellent build quality and optics.
Man, there are just tons. That's a very crowded price point. All roofs at that price point will be waterproof so that's not really a concern.
At the $200-250 level, in addition to the Legend and ZRS you have the Vortex Diamondback, Sightron SII Blue Sky, Bresser Everest, and thanks to sales and a $50 rebate the excellent Vanguard Endeavor ED.
As you creep towards $300-400, you get the Terra, Meopro, Zen-Ray ED3 and similar "clones" like Vortex Talon HD, Alpen Wings ED and the similar Celestron Granite, Minox BL BR. Plus you have the classic leaders of this price point, the Eagle Optics Ranger and the Nikon Monarch, which have somewhat narrower FOV's but offer reliable, highly reviewed and time tested packages.
IMO if you really want to keep it at $250, there isn't a better value right now than the Vanguard Endeavor ED. It's fully competitive optically with the $350-400 binoculars like the Terra or Zen ED3, extremely bright and sharp with solid mechanics; it makes the same trade-off as the Terra by eschewing the wow factor of the 8 degree FOV but delivering a better corrected field. Normally it sells for $300+ but you can find it for $300 or less and then take advantage of the $50 rebate to bring it down to the $250 price level.
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Are the Vanguard Endeavor ED 10x42s better than the following bins?
-Zen Ray ZRS HD 10x42
-Bresser Everest 10x42
-Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 10x42
-Nikon Action EX 10x50
No one can say due to SAMPLE VARIATION.
steve@37n84w
Well-known member
I could say it but I'd rather not, to me sample variation is just a euphemism for poor quality control. No matter how low the price point I'm not comfortable with the concept of "keep trying until you find a good one".
I personally feel the price point sweet spot where you can CONSISTENTLY find REPEATABLE high quality (when buying new) to be around the 600.00 range. I continue to be impressed with my 6x32 Viper HD, not a big difference between its view compared to my three alpha roofs and my premium porros.
I've seen good glass for less than my suggested price point but at the lower price points due to sample variation/poor quality control it really is a "hit or miss" proposition.
Steve
eitanaltman: Thanks for the reply. Good point about our propensity to rank (made again, probably unselfconsciously, by another poster!)
I already own a 10X ZRS and a diamondback, and was hoping for something with a larger sweetspot and a little flatter field. I may try the Vanguards, as B&H will let me return them.
I think Steve is right on: What you get for a little more than the $300 price point is quality control (I've had to return ZRs, Vortexs, and now Kowas for exchange due to poor examples).
I already own a 10X ZRS and a diamondback, and was hoping for something with a larger sweetspot and a little flatter field. I may try the Vanguards, as B&H will let me return them.
I think Steve is right on: What you get for a little more than the $300 price point is quality control (I've had to return ZRs, Vortexs, and now Kowas for exchange due to poor examples).
Paul,
I 've been exploring this for most of this year. It's a "most bang for the buck" sort of thing and I think it will be different for everybody.
I was playing with less expensive binoculars earlier this year thinking technology has trickled down and you get more bang for your buck... but come to realize... for me the price sweet spot starts around $550, which happens to coincide with Steve's opinion.
Two binoculars that come to mind that represent this are the Opticron BGA Classic 7x36 and the Vortex Viper HD. Decent optics but not super large sweet spots, sound mechanical qualities... the moving parts work relatively smoothly and feel decent... and the binocular has a decent feel to it.
Dropping below this price point, I have a 7x42 Leupold Hawthorn on hand, around $285-$350. The optics don't seem to be much less than those above, but it feels cheaper and the focuser is not nearly as smooth.
Going above the price point, I have two 8x32 on hand that retail for $900-$1200. The optics get a bit better providing larger sweet spots, and the mechanical qualities seem a slight bit better as well.
The $1800-$2200 price range doesn't seem to get much better optically or mechanically than the $900-$1200 I have on hand, one could argue the optical and mechanical improvements range from not being any better to the slightest of improvement and in some cases it could be argued that they are worse.
Again, I think it is different for everybody and comes down to defining your own acceptable quality level... and then you get the resultant price sweet spot.
FWIW, none of them fail at what they are supposed to, which is bring you in for a usable closer look.
CG
I 've been exploring this for most of this year. It's a "most bang for the buck" sort of thing and I think it will be different for everybody.
I was playing with less expensive binoculars earlier this year thinking technology has trickled down and you get more bang for your buck... but come to realize... for me the price sweet spot starts around $550, which happens to coincide with Steve's opinion.
Two binoculars that come to mind that represent this are the Opticron BGA Classic 7x36 and the Vortex Viper HD. Decent optics but not super large sweet spots, sound mechanical qualities... the moving parts work relatively smoothly and feel decent... and the binocular has a decent feel to it.
Dropping below this price point, I have a 7x42 Leupold Hawthorn on hand, around $285-$350. The optics don't seem to be much less than those above, but it feels cheaper and the focuser is not nearly as smooth.
Going above the price point, I have two 8x32 on hand that retail for $900-$1200. The optics get a bit better providing larger sweet spots, and the mechanical qualities seem a slight bit better as well.
The $1800-$2200 price range doesn't seem to get much better optically or mechanically than the $900-$1200 I have on hand, one could argue the optical and mechanical improvements range from not being any better to the slightest of improvement and in some cases it could be argued that they are worse.
Again, I think it is different for everybody and comes down to defining your own acceptable quality level... and then you get the resultant price sweet spot.
FWIW, none of them fail at what they are supposed to, which is bring you in for a usable closer look.
CG
Thanks, CG. Good input. This question partly comes from my experience 3-4 yrs ago of deciding I needed a new pair of binoculars and finding that the landscape of what was available had changed so much since the last time I bought a pair, due to Chinese manufacturing entering the picture in a big way. At that time there was a lot of "wow" factor about binoculars at the $250-300 point, but after trying a few, plus some visits to two local big box sporting goods stores, I've been thinking the curve levels off closer to the $500 price point than $300.
steve@37n84w
Well-known member
Seems like several of us agree on the 500.00-600.00 price point being where you get very good performance but more importantly consistently good performance combined with a mechanical build quality that ensures many years of use. At this price point I'm personally familiar with the Vortex Viper HD series and the Fujinon FMT-SX series but I'm enjoying this thread because it has provided some other suggestions in the 500.00-600.00 price range I now feel compelled to check out.
Steve
