Which camera and lens???? (1 Viewer)

I'm sure you guys get this a lot. I'd like to stay with Nikon or Canon but I am interested in a quality camera and zoom lens for some quality bird/wildlife (mainly birds) pics. Many of the pics will be taken in my yard but also during long sits in a deer stand during cold winter months if that makes any difference. Budget is preferably $1500 total,...but throw out all options $2K and under if you like.

I am interested in "in action " shots and also zoom capabilities. Those are important features.

Thanks -Aaron

The Tamron 150-600 G2 (canon or nikon) is about $1300 new. That's a great birding lens. Another option is the 100-400, but I have not used it. The Sigma 150-600 C or S is also an option, but I've not used them. The Sigma S (sport) version has better weather sealing than the C. In any case, I chose the Tamron. On a crop sensor, that lens is 225 - 900, which is a good length for all sorts of wildlife & bird photos. Don't try to use a 1.4x TC with it -- it's not worth it, I think.

The down side of the 150-600 range (tammy or sigma) and the 100-400 (again tammy or sigma) is they are f/6.3 at the long end. That's borderline slow for action. You'll need to pump up the ISO to keep your shutter up in the 1/1000th or faster. But modern cameras have good ISO performance. On a sunny day, it's not a problem. On overcast days in the winter months, it could become your limiting factor. But there's no good alternative except to spend a ton more money.

A Nikon d7200 is about $700 new or a d7500 is $800 new. The d7500 is 8 FPS vs d7200 6 FPS (the d7200 has a 1.3x crop mode at 7 FPS). The d7500 is slightly lower MP (you wont notice it) and only has 1 SD slot (vs 2 on d7200). The d7500 has a flippy screen. Personally, for the flippy screen and higher FPS, I'd do the d7500, but either is a great starter DSLR action camera.

That would fit nicely in the $2k budget.

For $1500, look for used. You can get the lens for about $1000 used or a grey market import for about the same. Personally, I'd stay away from the grey market as there's a decent chance you might need to send the lens in for service if Nikon does something in their firmware. Tamron will also clean the lens for you while in the service period. You can get the d7200 for maybe $500 - $600.

While this gear is sealed (d7200 + tamron 150-600 g2), on a wet day I would always use a rain sleeve with it like the Storm Jacket (I think large size, but double check that). While pretty light for a long lens, a monopod and/or black rapids sling strap really help a lot.

I shoot Nikon, so that's what I've talked about above. You can do pretty much the same thing in Canon with the 77d or 80d + tammy 150-600 g2.

The Nikon 500d and Canon 7dm2 are the top-end crop sensor action cameras, and I think the 500d is superior (and newer) than the 7dm2. But those are in the $1400-$1500 range. They are not needed for where you are right now.

Some canon shooters like the 400m f/5.6 prime. You can put a 1.4x tc on it for 550mm f/8 (896mm f/8 equivalent on a 1.6x crop camera), which still works well. And the lens is only $1150 new (maybe $800-$900 used). The downside is no image stabilization. But if you're on a tripod or at high shutter speed, that might not be an issue. It's also about half the weight of the tammy 150-600 (2.8 lb vs 4.4 lb), not counting a 1.4x TC.

Marc

marcsantacurz said:

The Tamron 150-600 G2 (canon or nikon) is about $1300 new. That's a great birding lens. Another option is the 100-400, but I have not used it. The Sigma 150-600 C or S is also an option, but I've not used them. The Sigma S (sport) version has better weather sealing than the C. In any case, I chose the Tamron. On a crop sensor, that lens is 225 - 900, which is a good length for all sorts of wildlife & bird photos. Don't try to use a 1.4x TC with it -- it's not worth it, I think.

The down side of the 150-600 range (tammy or sigma) and the 100-400 (again tammy or sigma) is they are f/6.3 at the long end. That's borderline slow for action. You'll need to pump up the ISO to keep your shutter up in the 1/1000th or faster. But modern cameras have good ISO performance. On a sunny day, it's not a problem. On overcast days in the winter months, it could become your limiting factor. But there's no good alternative except to spend a ton more money.

A Nikon d7200 is about $700 new or a d7500 is $800 new. The d7500 is 8 FPS vs d7200 6 FPS (the d7200 has a 1.3x crop mode at 7 FPS). The d7500 is slightly lower MP (you wont notice it) and only has 1 SD slot (vs 2 on d7200). The d7500 has a flippy screen. Personally, for the flippy screen and higher FPS, I'd do the d7500, but either is a great starter DSLR action camera.

That would fit nicely in the $2k budget.

For $1500, look for used. You can get the lens for about $1000 used or a grey market import for about the same. Personally, I'd stay away from the grey market as there's a decent chance you might need to send the lens in for service if Nikon does something in their firmware. Tamron will also clean the lens for you while in the service period. You can get the d7200 for maybe $500 - $600.

While this gear is sealed (d7200 + tamron 150-600 g2), on a wet day I would always use a rain sleeve with it like the Storm Jacket (I think large size, but double check that). While pretty light for a long lens, a monopod and/or black rapids sling strap really help a lot.

I shoot Nikon, so that's what I've talked about above. You can do pretty much the same thing in Canon with the 77d or 80d + tammy 150-600 g2.

The Nikon 500d and Canon 7dm2 are the top-end crop sensor action cameras, and I think the 500d is superior (and newer) than the 7dm2. But those are in the $1400-$1500 range. They are not needed for where you are right now.

Some canon shooters like the 400m f/5.6 prime. You can put a 1.4x tc on it for 550mm f/8 (896mm f/8 equivalent on a 1.6x crop camera), which still works well. And the lens is only $1150 new (maybe $800-$900 used). The downside is no image stabilization. But if you're on a tripod or at high shutter speed, that might not be an issue. It's also about half the weight of the tammy 150-600 (2.8 lb vs 4.4 lb), not counting a 1.4x TC.

Marc

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Marc,..thanks a ton for your lengthy reply. I should have stated that zoom is more important than action freeze capability and that while I will be in cold weather I won't be taking this equipment in the rain. Best Regards, -Aaron

Nikon P1000 does it all even in fairly poor light,

Den

poledark said:

Nikon P1000 does it all even in fairly poor light,

Den

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Excuse my ignorance here but is the zoom lens built into this unit??Or is it an extra ad on ??

aaronc said:

Excuse my ignorance here but is the zoom lens built into this unit??Or is it an extra ad on ??

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The P900 and the new P1000 are bridge-style cameras with a built-in zoom. They have a small sensor so get crazy zoom focal lengths. The P1000 is about $1000 and goes out to 3000mm equivalent f/2.8 - f/8. ISO maxes out at 6400. it will shoot 7 FPS but only has a 1s or 2s buffer (don't remember the exact size).

I've shot the P900, but not the P1000. There's a giant thread on the P1000 in the Nikon section.

Compared to a DSLR with a 150-600 lens, the P1000 is lighter (3.1 lb vs ~6 lb for d7500 + tammy), smaller, costs less, and zooms about 3x more. But it is a very small sensor (1/2.3") so the IQ is not as good as a DSLR. The AF speed is slower, etc. The VR on the P900 was pretty good, so i assume it's pretty good on the P1000 too. You can get great photos out of it, but there are definite tradeoffs from the DSLR route.

Marc

marcsantacurz said:

The P900 and the new P1000 are bridge-style cameras with a built-in zoom. They have a small sensor so get crazy zoom focal lengths. The P1000 is about $1000 and goes out to 3000mm equivalent f/2.8 - f/8. ISO maxes out at 6400. it will shoot 7 FPS but only has a 1s or 2s buffer (don't remember the exact size).

I've shot the P900, but not the P1000. There's a giant thread on the P1000 in the Nikon section.

Compared to a DSLR with a 150-600 lens, the P1000 is lighter (3.1 lb vs ~6 lb for d7500 + tammy), smaller, costs less, and zooms about 3x more. But it is a very small sensor (1/2.3") so the IQ is not as good as a DSLR. The AF speed is slower, etc. The VR on the P900 was pretty good, so i assume it's pretty good on the P1000 too. You can get great photos out of it, but there are definite tradeoffs from the DSLR route.

Marc

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Interesting,..that makes me wonder if you guys "in this heavy" and keep up with all the new tech think that this type of tech could change the game as far as lenses go,....I'll check out the thread.

Years ago I had and still do have a canon,..haven't looked at it forever but don't remember the model number. I purchased an ??-300 lens for it. Did some wildlife work with it and I was very happy. But I know everything has changed and gone digital,...I don't even know if they still develop roll film at my local wal-mart anymore. Thanks again for replys. -Aaron

Marc has given you some good advice.

The superzoom bridge cameras are best on static subjects in good light - they don't so much change the game as offer another option over a narrower spectrum of conditions and subjects.
The DSLR's offer better AF, better low light performance, and more versatility. For increased weight and expense you will get shots (or better shots) than just aren't repeatable with bridge cameras.

For a lens it's pretty hard to go past the Tamron G2 150-600 f6.3.
Nikon's 200-500 f5.6 offers a half stop faster aperture at the expense of narrower zoom range, shorter maximum length, and greater weight.
The new Sigma 60-600 f6.3 Sport offers a greater zoom range but is much heavier and a bit more expensive. It is about as much hand held weight as you want.
All of these 3 offer similar IQ - you will probably find that actual unit to unit variability determines which is sharpest. They will all be sharper than the photographer anyway. Whichever lens and body you get make sure you fine tune the focus of the combination - that will give the best sharpness over a range of distances, the greatest chance of success, and the most happiness. :t:

As far as a body goes in your budget range, I second either the Nkkon D7200 or the D7500. The D7200 has been recently discontinued and so should be available at a good discount, and the D7500 is also having a current price reduction. The 1.3x in-camera crop mode is very useful on both - on the D7200 it will eek an extra fps bringing it up to 7fps. If for example you teamed one of these bodies with the new 60-600 Siggy you could cover 90-1200mm !

Also agree with Marc that you would at least want a Black Rapid type sling with these. Such rigs are great bang for the buck and bring lots of fun.

The only caveat I would suggest is if you can wait a few months then do, to see if Canon releases it's new 90D crop body. This is rumored to be 31.5MP and pretty high spec (Nikon D7500 level or better, though perhaps a bit more expensive). The choice of brand is important as that dictates the lens mount - once you're in that's pretty much it - you're in !!



Chosun :gh:

Chosun Juan said:

Marc has given you some good advice.

The superzoom bridge cameras are best on static subjects in good light - they don't so much change the game as offer another option over a narrower spectrum of conditions and subjects.
The DSLR's offer better AF, better low light performance, and more versatility. For increased weight and expense you will get shots (or better shots) than just aren't repeatable with bridge cameras.

For a lens it's pretty hard to go past the Tamron G2 150-600 f6.3.
Nikon's 200-500 f5.6 offers a half stop faster aperture at the expense of narrower zoom range, shorter maximum length, and greater weight.
The new Sigma 60-600 f6.3 Sport offers a greater zoom range but is much heavier and a bit more expensive. It is about as much hand held weight as you want.
All of these 3 offer similar IQ - you will probably find that actual unit to unit variability determines which is sharpest. They will all be sharper than the photographer anyway. Whichever lens and body you get make sure you fine tune the focus of the combination - that will give the best sharpness over a range of distances, the greatest chance of success, and the most happiness. :t:

As far as a body goes in your budget range, I second either the Nkkon D7200 or the D7500. The D7200 has been recently discontinued and so should be available at a good discount, and the D7500 is also having a current price reduction. The 1.3x in-camera crop mode is very useful on both - on the D7200 it will eek an extra fps bringing it up to 7fps. If for example you teamed one of these bodies with the new 60-600 Siggy you could cover 90-1200mm !

Also agree with Marc that you would at least want a Black Rapid type sling with these. Such rigs are great bang for the buck and bring lots of fun.

The only caveat I would suggest is if you can wait a few months then do, to see if Canon releases it's new 90D crop body. This is rumored to be 31.5MP and pretty high spec (Nikon D7500 level or better, though perhaps a bit more expensive). The choice of brand is important as that dictates the lens mount - once you're in that's pretty much it - you're in !!



Chosun :gh:

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Thank you sir.

There's also a whole slew of Panasonic and Sony bridge cameras in the 600mm - 1000mm equivalent focal length. It's pretty much a decision about do you want smaller & lighter & less expensive or do you want better IQ & high ISO & action AF.

Going back to your original post about "quality wildlife pics" and "long sits in a deer stand," I think you want a DSLR not a bridge or superzoom point-and-shoot. DSLRs are meant to be turned on and ready to shoot for long periods of time and are super snappy. Bridge cameras and P&S are often sluggish coming out of sleep mode and can burn batteries a lot faster.

A d7500 will give you over 1000 shots on a single battery (assuming no flash). A P1000 has a CIPA rating of 250, but actual use would likely be more like 300 - 400 (I don't know actual user experience on this).

Nikon DSLRs can also focus trap. You can set a focus point and set the AF-S/AF-C priority to "Focus" and set the AF activation to "AF-ON only" and use an external shutter release that can lock to "on." This lets the camera detect when something walks/flies into focus and automatically shoot a single or burst of it. It can burn batteries much faster, but is really handy in some situations. I've using this with humming birds and you can get some outstanding results that are not possible trying to track the little guys. You can also get focus trap on Pentax and some Canons (only with Magic Lantern firmware AFAIK).

What I have done before -- and as you are in the USA you could do too -- is use a company like BorrowLenses.com or LensRentals.com and try before you buy. Both are easy to work with and offer a great service. Bridge cameras like the Sony DSC-RX10 IV or Nikon P1000 will be under $100 rental for a week. A d7500 + 150-600 (make sure it's the G2) would be maybe $150 for a week.

aaronc said:

I am interested in "in action " shots and also zoom capabilities. Those are important features.

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By "zoom" do you mean the ability to zoom in and out, or the ability to have a high magnification?

The distinction matters, because Nikon has the excellent 300mm f/4 PF and 500mm f/5.6 PF lenses that are very light but achieve high magnification. Their 200-500mm f/5.6 provides a wide zoom factor, but is extremely heavy and optically nowhere near as sharp (still good, but not superlatively so). It is also on sale right now at $1250.

I have a 500mm PF on order (the waiting list is in months) but my current rig is a Nikon Z7, 300mm f/4 PF and TC-E14III teleconverter for 420mm or the equivalent of 8x binoculars.

In bridge cameras, the Sony RX10MIV is generally considered the best right now, followed by the Panasonic DMC-FZ1000II, DMC-FZ2500 and the Canon G3X. The Nikon P1000 has a tiny 1/2.3" sensor that hardly collects any light and is largely useless outside bright sunlight. You'd be better served by a Panasonic ZS200 which at least has a 1" sensor, even if its lens is somewhat soft.

fazalmajid said:

By "zoom" do you mean the ability to zoom in and out, or the ability to have a high magnification?

The distinction matters, because Nikon has the excellent 300mm f/4 PF and 500mm f/5.6 PF lenses that are very light but achieve high magnification. Their 200-500mm f/5.6 provides a wide zoom factor, but is extremely heavy and optically nowhere near as sharp (still good, but not superlatively so). It is also on sale right now at $1250.

I have a 500mm PF on order (the waiting list is in months) but my current rig is a Nikon Z7, 300mm f/4 PF and TC-E14III teleconverter for 420mm or the equivalent of 8x binoculars.

In bridge cameras, the Sony RX10MIV is generally considered the best right now, followed by the Panasonic DMC-FZ1000II, DMC-FZ2500 and the Canon G3X. The Nikon P1000 has a tiny 1/2.3" sensor that hardly collects any light and is largely useless outside bright sunlight. You'd be better served by a Panasonic ZS200 which at least has a 1" sensor, even if its lens is somewhat soft.

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Well actually I guess I mean both. I do want all the magnification myself and the camera can handle off hand,..but also the ability to adjust in and out. Many of my subjects in the yard or the deer stand won't be that far away.,...and then again others will. At the moment the Tamron 150-600 is sounding like my workhorse lens. I don't want to be stuck on one magnification power. That wouldn't be me,..at least at the moment. Thanks for your response!-Aaron

aaronc said:

Well actually ..... At the moment the Tamron 150-600 is sounding like my workhorse lens. I don't want to be stuck on one magnification power.....

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Absolutely make sure it's the G2 Tamron.
The new 60-600 Sigma would also be interesting for you if the budget and muscles stretch that far ......






Chosun :gh:

Chosun Juan said:

Absolutely make sure it's the G2 Tamron.
The new 60-600 Sigma would also be interesting for you if the budget and muscles stretch that far ......






Chosun :gh:

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Will do,...I've got a little research to do with all the info you've guys have given and my purchase is probably about 90 days out. But it is a reasonable amount of $$ to be spending and I like to do some slow paced digging/research before hand. My knowledge base on the details are no where close to where you guys are at. So all the responses are greatly appreciated. Best -Aaron

Action and Zoom are difficult to reconcile, as Action needs fast focus and maximal light gathering, while Zoom tends to be more deliberate, especially in focus.

A camera body with a quality sensor that can perform even at high ISOs is probably the key to reconciling these needs.
That said, I'd think that Action is almost impossible to reconcile with really big lenses, considering those 600mm monsters to be just too unwieldy to swing around instantaneously for action shots.

etudiant said:

Action and Zoom are difficult to reconcile, as Action needs fast focus and maximal light gathering, while Zoom tends to be more deliberate, especially in focus.

A camera body with a quality sensor that can perform even at high ISOs is probably the key to reconciling these needs.
That said, I'd think that Action is almost impossible to reconcile with really big lenses, considering those 600mm monsters to be just too unwieldy to swing around instantaneously for action shots.

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For this first purchase and initial set up I would rank zoom more important.

etudiant said:

Action and Zoom are difficult to reconcile, as Action needs fast focus and maximal light gathering, while Zoom tends to be more deliberate, especially in focus.

A camera body with a quality sensor that can perform even at high ISOs is probably the key to reconciling these needs.
That said, I'd think that Action is almost impossible to reconcile with really big lenses, considering those 600mm monsters to be just too unwieldy to swing around instantaneously for action shots.

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This is true, they are somewhat mutually exclusive, especially on slower lenses in poor light - the AF on these prosumer superzoom lenses is not as fast as on a telephoto prime (especially those of f4 or f2.8) but is still a heck of a lot quicker (and cheaper !) than changing lenses ! Better more expensive bodies also tend to AF slightly better too

Personally I find that about a 2kg lens is about as much as I want to be swinging about. With practice and regular use you can follow most things most of the time - the zoom out ability helps in those cases were you or the lens gets lost, to get back on track.

I should have mentioned too that Nikon is widely rumored to soon release a new Full Frame iteration D760. This prosumer body is likely to be excellent in low light IS performance, but is also likely to blow the budget too. Perhaps a 2nd hand D750 then may become an option within the budget. Such a FF body would be useful with the Sigma 60-600 allowing you to get down to a genuine 60mm, though depending on subject size and distance you may find yourself cropping a lot at the long end.




Chosun :gh:

I feel I must really defend my P1000 superzoom for its all round capability. Image quality is certainly as good as anyone doing birding,deer spotting, rabbit spotting or any other type of wild life photography. The functions of the camera will cover almost any situation you are likely to come across, the zoom is immense, fast enough to get you on target pretty quickly, and the AF is almost instant, certainly never been a problem for me.

Switching to manual is simplicity itself, one click and adjust the focus ring, coupled with the sparkling indicator, will deal with foliage or twigs very positively.

The snap back function is also useful if you lose the bird in foliage, can be set at 3 different levels of zoom, I tend to use the shortest setting.
Image quality,as with all cameras, varies with the light and conditions, the VR copes well when hand holding at up to full zoom, superb up to 2000mm and with shutter set to 1000 will give excellent results. Hand held shots of the moon or mars are pretty good to
Used as a spotting scope the EVF is really clear and bright, best to set the brightness at highest setting, same for the screen.
Want to do a bit of macro? No problem, focus right down to 5mm from lens.

What else? Just a damned good all round camera that wii capture excellent images even in very poor light, a little tweaking on the computer will deal with that.

Price? Under £1000 a couple of spare batteries for £20 with charger and you are set to handle ANY situation in the field.

I will probably come back with some more comments, I must have left out a couple of good ones

Den

A few topics....

Action: Maybe we should define what "action" means. Usually, it means quickly moving subjects. And by "quickly" I mean you need to move the lens to track or have subject tracking AF for running at you, or use other tricks (like focus trapping). You also need a higher shutter speed to freeze the image. So here you need attributes like nimble or fast aperture. Lighter or rear-weighted lenses really help here. That said, I find the Tamron 150-600 g2 to be OK for most BIF, either handheld or on a gimbal. I shoot swallows and finches in flight (not easily, but can be done). The newer light-weight 500 f/4s can also work, as well as the 500 f/5.6 (nikon) or 400 f/4 DO (canon) or f/5.6 (canon) and maybe the rumored Nikon 600mm f/5.6. By "OK" I mean for my non-commercial use. Pros usually want to shoot at much lower ISO, so need heavier and faster lenses.

High ISO: You will gain maybe a stop or two going from crop to FF (i.e., ISO 6400 on crop will look about as bad as ISO 12,800 or 25,600 on FF), depending on the camera's MP resolution. A 24MP full frame will compare well to a similar 24MP crop, but you lose the 1.5x crop factor. A 40 MP full frame might not be that much different than a 20MP crop sensor as they have about the same pixel size (there's a lot of variability here). That said, on the current crop sensor cameras you can get pretty good results out to 6,400 or 12,800, depending on how much you want to crop and if you shoot raw or try to edit camera jpeg. For example, f/5.6 and 1/1000th at ISO 6,400 you are at EV 9 which is after sunset level lighting (a dark subject would need another stop or two). Any modern crop sensor will do just fine with that.

P1000: I've never shot it, only the P900. So I'm speaking mostly from the numbers not experience. As the P1000 is f/8 (at long focal length) with max ISO 6,400, you need to slow down the shutter speed. VR can compensate for that for static subjects, but for moving subjects VR won't help unless you can pan well to correct for lateral movement (head-on movement won't get any benefit from panning). In good lighting, it will be OK as you should be able to keep 1/1000th or so. That's the main practical tradeoff, I think. My experience with tiny sensors, also, is you cannot crop them as much as a larger sensor image, but that might just be issues with the jpeg output (does the P1000 do a raw?). Another consideration is battery life and wake up speed from sleep mode. That's mostly a question of how you are going to use the camera and if the difference between a DSLR (which is long battery, fast wakeup) and the P1000 actually makes a difference to how you use it.

Personally, if you think the P1000 will work for you, I'd rent it for a week and see if it does what you need. The $100 is well spent if you can save $1500 - $2000 compared to a DSLR + 150-600. I did this with the Sony RX10 IV and found I just didn't like the camera, though the images were OK.

Marc

As stated many of my pics will be right here in the yard. A LOT of my pics will be within 25 yards. Even in the Kentucky hills where I hunt a lot of subjects will be at that range and lets say a max of 50 yards. There are always leaves on and I hunt dense woodlands. So if I may try in put this in practical terms that I may understand for my usage let me ask you guys this,..

1. At 25 yards on a bright sunny day will there be any discernible difference in IQ on a songbird sized subject sitting in a tree between theses to camera types?

2. What about 50 yards,..same scenario?

3. If we cut the light down to an overcast cloudy day deep in the woods which camera would have the best IQ?

Or maybe at these distances there is no huge difference? If not how far out do we need to stretch these camera types to see a difference between the two on IQ?

With the 150-600 and the p1000 is it common to feel the need for a tripod or to shoot off of a rest sort of speak. Not sure how you guys word it.


It seems camera bodies kind of come and go from what I have read so far and if I go the more traditional route I will somewhat be buying into a system of lenses.,..at least that's how I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong. That would be perhaps the Nikon VS Canon thing but lets just stay with nikon here. These new bridge cameras are certainly interesting and appear to be the new way of doing things,..as stated before I somewhat wonder if that is where it is headed as far as the industry goes,..sometimes those things happen in a hurry. I am basically talking out loud here simply letting you guys know where my thoughts are,..any responses to my scenarios above would be helpful.


Also I'm going to scroll through some threads and look for what I think is some great quality pics shot by the p1000 and those DSLR's in my price range....hopefully I'll find some with the distance stated.

-Aaron