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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Daytime benefit of large objectives? (1 Viewer)

I'm surprised to see large binoculars getting so much attention lately. I'm afraid much of it is due to Dennis' proselytizing, which I predict won't last long. ;)

When I first joined Birdforum a few years back, I read a lot of the archives to get a sense of the community. A few individual's behavior stuck out in great contrast to the rest. There was a specific, serial pattern being engaged in...

Regarding this recent tryst, I note a marked increase in co-opting other more learned folks observations and terminology to validate the acquisition during the bloom of 'first love'... in the manner of a used car salesman rattling off a list of terms to an unwitting customer... " Its got NAFTA, MOPAR, and radon capabilities... You can feel the radon, its amazing. Big difference"

In a few months, the hysteria will die down, and Ebay will quietly collect its annulment fee..

You folks are a tolerant lot, I must say.

Spring is in full swing. Enjoy your bins and the birds.

-Bill
 
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Spring is in full swing. Enjoy your bins and the birds.

Bill

I have been more in tune of bird behavior this spring, since I have had more leisure time out with glass and their behavior is quite stunning even in the few feeders in my back yard, not to mention the Redtailed hawks and the crows going at it, and the sharp-shinned hawk going after juncos and white throated-sparrows for a snack. They won't even try to catch the black capped chickadees, fun to watch.

A.W.
 
I think SLC 10x56 can be a quite a compelling option, and a lot of fun in certain circumstances.
The weight provides image stability that gets closer to the steadiness of an 8x42, in my opinion, and it definitely reveals more detail at distance with its sharp optics and extra magnification. Combine that with a bright image in low light and you have a really different binocular to the usual 8x42 or 8.5x42. It is still a beast, but the weight becomes more tolerable with use. Consideration of pupil dilation with age also has relevance in the choice between the 8x56 and 10x56.
A bigger factor may be that if you already have a quality 8x, you may want something a little different. It would still not be my choice if it was my only binocular.
 
I'm surprised to see large binoculars getting so much attention lately. I'm afraid much of it is due to Dennis' proselytizing, which I predict won't last long. ;)

Quite right. He'll probably start extolling the virtues of 10x25's in a couple of months time ...o:D

By the way, I've also been thinking about getting one of the big boys - SLC 15x56 or Conquest HD 15x56. For use on a tripod, as a substitute for a scope in places where I don't need more magnification.

Hermann
 
When I first joined Birdforum a few years back, I read a lot of the archives to get a sense of the community. A few individual's behavior stuck out in great contrast to the rest. There was a specific, serial pattern being engaged in...

Regarding this recent tryst, I note a marked increase in co-opting other more learned folks observations and terminology to justify the acquisition during the bloom of 'first love'... in the manner of a used car salesman rattling off a list of terms to an unwitting customer... " Its got NAFTA, MOPAR, and radon capabilities... You can feel the radon, its amazing. Big difference"

In a few months, the hysteria will die down, and Ebay will quietly collect its annulment fee..

You folks are a tolerant lot, I must say.

Spring is in full swing. Enjoy your bins and the birds.

-Bill

I [and others] have said as much, numerous times. Most other sites on the net would recognize the behaviour and put an end to it - here it seems to be considered acceptable, especially if the individual is touting ''your'' brand of choice - lol. Some of it is tolerance, much is naivete IMO.
 
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Tell me about older 10x50 SLC WB (Pre-Swarovision) circa 2007. What are its specs, most importantly, diopters at infinity value?
 
Spring is in full swing. Enjoy your bins and the birds.

Bill

I have been more in tune of bird behavior this spring, since I have had more leisure time out with glass and their behavior is quite stunning even in the few feeders in my back yard, not to mention the Redtailed hawks and the crows going at it, and the sharp-shinned hawk going after juncos and white throated-sparrows for a snack. They won't even try to catch the black capped chickadees, fun to watch.

A.W.

That's the spirit! We're getting the longer days, so I can see the birds better around the yard, and at the feeder while I'm having my early morning coffee, w/bins at hand. There's a Thrasher that runs down our garden slope like a roadrunner, then lurks at the edge of the lawn, before hopping up to the feeder, or just forages alongside the Sparrows and Juncos below it. With that beak, they can also excavate rapidly in the dirt as well. It is impressive to watch.

There's a Downy Woodpecker that visits the Suet block daily, but also clings vertically to the metal pole holding everything up, and just studies it intently with an occasional exploratory peck.

When the Quail come waddling in, they are like dirigibles compared to the rest of the locals. Sometimes 2 Quail will literally sit in the feeder box, while Chickadees and Titmice zip in and out between them, doing a grab and go.

We've had a few Sharp-shins in the yard. I've yet to see them catch anything yet.

And they're all singing up a storm.

-Bill
 
By the way, I've also been thinking about getting one of the big boys - SLC 15x56 or Conquest HD 15x56. For use on a tripod, as a substitute for a scope in places where I don't need more magnification.

Hermann,
I have tested both of these briefly on a tripod, though the intended usage would have been on a monopod. With a 3x12 Zeiss monocular behind it I thought the Swarovski 15x56 HD performed excellently but as a glasses wearer I ruled it out for its marginal eye relief of 16 mm.
The Zeiss Conquest is not only exceedingly bulky but showed some of the worst CA I have seen in any binocular.

John
 
I have tested both of these briefly on a tripod, though the intended usage would have been on a monopod. With a 3x12 Zeiss monocular behind it I thought the Swarovski 15x56 HD performed excellently but as a glasses wearer I ruled it out for its marginal eye relief of 16 mm.
The Zeiss Conquest is not only exceedingly bulky but showed some of the worst CA I have seen in any binocular.

Thanks, John. I noticed some CA in the Zeiss as well but didn't have the time to really check it out. And you're right, the Zeiss is quite a beast. The Swaro feels more like a (big) binocular. Good to hear it works well with the Zeiss 3x12. I didn't try that combination yet.

BTW, I'd also use the big binocular on a monopod most of the time. Don't like the Swarovski adapter much though. I should have got one of those Zeiss 15x60 BGAT before Zeiss dropped them. I've still got the nice and small adapter Zeiss made for those porros ... Too late now, and I don't want to buy one used.

Hermann
 
Sorry guys, there may be some ease of use benefits to a larger exit pupil, but in normal daylight bigger objectives do not mean an increase in radiant flux at the retina. That's one of the fundamental rules of physics...

Objective size isn't the only variable here. Perhaps the A-K prisms of the SLC 56s (and similar Zeiss models) give this impression of greater brightness? I haven't heard owners making similar claims for 50mm S-P glasses, or even the previous 56mm Swaros which were S-P.

I think SLC 10x56 can be a quite a compelling option, and a lot of fun in certain circumstances.
The weight provides image stability that gets closer to the steadiness of an 8x42, in my opinion, and it definitely reveals more detail at distance with its sharp optics and extra magnification. Combine that with a bright image in low light and you have a really different binocular to the usual 8x42 or 8.5x42. It is still a beast, but the weight becomes more tolerable with use. Consideration of pupil dilation with age also has relevance in the choice between the 8x56 and 10x56.
A bigger factor may be that if you already have a quality 8x, you may want something a little different. It would still not be my choice if it was my only binocular.

I totally agree, it's about complementary performance (in my case, to my usual 10x32). If I were limited to one bino it wouldn't be a 56mm. But it is a very nice alternative at times!

Regarding this recent tryst, I note a marked increase in co-opting other more learned folks observations and terminology to validate the acquisition during the bloom of 'first love'...

To be fair, binoculars are wonderful, and a source of great enjoyment to all here. Many of us want to make wise choices, rely on more expert opinion to guide them, and enjoy the results enough to have the impulse to recommend what works well for us to others. I know I do; it's just natural. (Only impulse control varies. :)
 
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Whoa there... I think denco is getting a bit of stick here that might not altogether be deserved. I find the reasons he gives for liking (and disliking) his various acquisitions are normally fairly valid - average out the "before" and "after" and the picture becomes fairly well balanced!

Re the advantages of large objectives in daylight - this is purely subjective on my part, and I won't attempt to put my finger on the whys and wherefores, but I can say for sure that when I looked through the 8x56 SLC at the UK Birdfair last year I thought it gave me the nicest view I have yet seen through a binocular - what my brother called the "big bright view" - the same effect that has been referred to here as the "open window" or "walk-in view". I know its light transmission percentages should be no better than other high-end binoculars, and that in bright conditions the huge exit pupil should be superfluous, but I think the sheer size of that exit pupil makes it surpassingly easy to "get into" that amazing image in terms of eye placement, and to stay on it. I'm not sure it is all about exit pupil size, either - I've used the highly rated 7x42 B/GA T*P Dialyt and some (not so highly rated) 7x50 marine binoculars and although I like the former very much indeed, it still doesn't deliver that kind of big bright view that the 8x56 does. The big objectives have to have something to do with it, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to say just what. As for resolution, aberration... I'll leave discussion of those to more optically knowledgeable folks.

Now, I didn't rush out and buy one for several reasons (cost, size/weight, and desire for greater magnification being the most important), but I can restate, emphatically, that the view that this thing provided, to me at least, was amazing. Swarovski should have one as a demonstrator at their bird fair stands and for major retailers to show just how nice an image binoculars can provide.

NB. not that it's really necessary to cite anyone else in support of what I have stressed is my personal opinion, but at least one fairly experienced birder appears to have found the same; http://www.audubon.org/news/size-matters-case-really-big-binoculars
 
Objective size isn't the only variable here. Perhaps the A-K prisms of the SLC 56s (and similar Zeiss models) give this impression of greater brightness? I haven't heard owners making similar claims for 50mm S-P glasses, or even the previous 56mm Swaros which were S-P.

There has been much said here about the difference between AK and SP prisms, but as far as I'm aware, the highest transmission levels honours are shared between the Zeiss HT x42 (SP) and Swarovski Habicht (porro). You will certainly find plenty on the forum extolling their virtues and others like the Swaro ELSV x42 (SP). Unfortunately this is rather misleading. The eye is poor at judging luminance, not the least, because the diameter of the pupil of the eye constantly oscillates (hippus) causing a 20% change in light levels at the retina every second or two. However the eye can be very good at detecting differences in colour, and binoculars are effectively coloured filters. One thing those models I mentioned do have in common is they have a relatively strong blue transmission.

As I mentioned I have tried the SLC 8x56 alongside the rest of the SLC and EL range and I don't recall anything exceptional about it's brightness, sharpness or colour rendition. (Both ranges are pretty good anyway). I will acknowledge I felt the view was quite relaxed. For me that has nothing to do with exit pupil size, prisms or colour. Just a smallish percentage of models feel completely natural to me, like there is no binocular there at all. I presume it's something in the particular cocktail of aberrations and distortions which complement those of your own eye. If so, it's probably unlikely that what works for me won't work for you, and vice versa.

David
 
David, post 112,
The Zeiss HT binoculars have AK prisms and that is exactly why its light transmission is fairly high in comparison with other binoculars with SP prisms. That the Habicht porro's have such a high transmission is caused by the porro prims in combination with their optical construction.
I do not agree with you that our eyes are so poor in detecting brightness differences although there is of course a threshold and it would be helpful if you could supply s with solid data about our constantly changing size of eyepupil.
Gijs van Ginkel
 
David, post 112,
The Zeiss HT binoculars have AK prisms and that is exactly why its light transmission is fairly high in comparison with other binoculars with SP prisms. That the Habicht porro's have such a high transmission is caused by the porro prims in combination with their optical construction.
I do not agree with you that our eyes are so poor in detecting brightness differences although there is of course a threshold and it would be helpful if you could supply s with solid data about our constantly changing size of eyepupil.
Gijs van Ginkel

Gijs,

You are right on the HT. I got my prisms mixed up.

There is a substantial scientific literature on hippus, but most hidden behind a subscription wall. I've attached a rather old publication that gives some indication of frequency. It comments on amplitude changes but doesn't report it. More recent stuff indicates significant age and diurnal variation. The following abstract gives an indication of the magnitude that can occur, but higher frequency oscillation appear to be nearer 0.5mm from disease oriented studies.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0042698971900162

For the YouTube generation.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...AC8QtwIIJTAA&usg=AOvVaw3wSFOmlZ_QuYS66TdG8czE

I've conducted a few home experiments on myself, family and friends, partially obscuring objectives with neutral density filters or changing luminance levels. Even when the subject is informed of the nature of the test, providing there was over 5 seconds between the change in condition a 10% increase or decrease was not consistently detected. With an interval of about 30 seconds the threshold increased to greater than 20% in most subjects.
 

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There has been much said here about the difference between AK and SP prisms, but as far as I'm aware, the highest transmission levels honours are shared between the Zeiss HT x42 (SP) and Swarovski Habicht (porro). You will certainly find plenty on the forum extolling their virtues and others like the Swaro ELSV x42 (SP). Unfortunately this is rather misleading. The eye is poor at judging luminance, not the least, because the diameter of the pupil of the eye constantly oscillates (hippus) causing a 20% change in light levels at the retina every second or two. However the eye can be very good at detecting differences in colour, and binoculars are effectively coloured filters. One thing those models I mentioned do have in common is they have a relatively strong blue transmission.

As I mentioned I have tried the SLC 8x56 alongside the rest of the SLC and EL range and I don't recall anything exceptional about it's brightness, sharpness or colour rendition. (Both ranges are pretty good anyway). I will acknowledge I felt the view was quite relaxed. For me that has nothing to do with exit pupil size, prisms or colour. Just a smallish percentage of models feel completely natural to me, like there is no binocular there at all. I presume it's something in the particular cocktail of aberrations and distortions which complement those of your own eye. If so, it's probably unlikely that what works for me won't work for you, and vice versa.

David
"As I mentioned I have tried the SLC 8x56 alongside the rest of the SLC and EL range and I don't recall anything exceptional about it's brightness, sharpness or colour rendition."

With the SLC 8x56 it is not so much about brightness, sharpness or colour rendition all though it is excellent in these areas. Where it surpasses smaller aperture binoculars is in the quality of the image. It is more about the clarity ,transparency and aberration free image it produces. It feels more like you are not looking through a binocular than any instrument I have ever used. It surprises me quite frankly you can not see that when here are four experienced birders that observe it but as you say all of our eyes are different. Henry's quote is on the Zeiss 8x56 FL which is still on the same format.

"Because it isn’t only about brightness. It’s about the quality of the image, and Swarovski’s 8x56 SLC offers perhaps the best image that I have seen in any binocular. Despite their considerable weight I found them almost impossible to put down."

"I looked through the 8x56 SLC at the UK Birdfair last year I thought it gave me the nicest view I have yet seen through a binocular."

"Good as the 8.5 SV is (and it's really very good, better than the equivalent SF to my eye), the big SLC is better optically I would say but you are giving up a fair amount of handling and weight for that image improvement. The SV is my general 'go to' binocular in most cases but I use the 10x56 when I know I need that bit more power/clarity and there is no doubt in my mind it's the better option for tracking very long distance raptors or following a fast flying bird over a darker cluttered background. FWIW, I thought the 10x50 SV was seriously good too but the SLC is just that bit better for me, albeit in a much larger package. The 8x56 SLC arguably has a yet better image"

"Now, does any of this matter when you simply look through the binoculars at 8x? To my delight the answer is yes. In daylight he 8x56 FL produces the sharpest, cleanest and most transparent image I’ve yet seen in a binocular. It’s very obvious comparing it to other binoculars tripod mounted, but even hand holding I’m always aware that the image is unusually fine by binocular standards. I wouldn’t have expected any binocular to make the 8x42FL, Nikon 7x50 Prostar and 8x32SE look mushy and dull in sunlight, but the 8x56 FL does it. Besides the reduced longitudinal CA and SA seen in star testing there is also a reduction in lateral color that is quite obvious in daylight. Lateral color is probably almost always what people are seeing when they complain about “color fringing” in binoculars. There is also a modest but welcome increase in the size of the “sweet spot” compared to the 8x42FL. Less lateral color and a bigger sweet spot are two more benefits that come from the higher objective focal ratio, because the less steep light cone allows the eyepiece to perform better off-axis. But, alas, edge of the field astigmatism is still this binocular’s weakest performance characteristic, just like the 8x42FL. The 7mm exit pupil also has a benefit in daylight. There is virtually complete freedom from “flare”. When bright reflections from the edge of the objective reach the eye they are out at the edge of a 7mm circle of light, so the flare tends to fall invisibly on the iris rather than entering the eye."
 
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Denis,

Why would it surprise you? I'm struggling to recall an occasion when we did agree, but flip a coin enough times and it's bound to happen one day. ;)

David

PS. I see Dennis has now totally changed his post. He had expressed surprise that I did't agree with him and others.
 
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Everybodies eyes are different and what works well for one person doesn't work for another. That is why it is best to try before you buy. Some people agree with you and some don't. That is why it is a good thing there are all kinds of binoculars for different users. With a couple of exceptions it seems like most agree there are optical advantages to the bigger aperture binoculars but certainly these come at a cost of weight and size. Henry Link's thread on his 8x56 Zeiss FL's is what made me try the Swarovski SLC 8x56 and I am glad I did because I didn't realize there were so many advantages to moving up in objective size. Thanks for that, Henry

https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=840895&postcount=1
 
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Denis,

PS. I see Dennis has now totally changed his post. He had expressed surprise that I did't agree with him and others.

The methodology is clear. Suppose someone went to see a movie that they liked, and then posted about it on a cinema forum, but relied extensively on a professional journalist's review, quoting passages from it repeatedly in post after post, in an attempt to somehow gild their own opinions with the luster of someone else's greater knowledge and experience. There may be an ounce or two of sincerity involved, but the track record reveals something else entirely...
 
"As I mentioned I have tried the SLC 8x56 alongside the rest of the SLC and EL range and I don't recall anything exceptional about it's brightness, sharpness or colour rendition."

With the SLC 8x56 it is not so much about brightness, sharpness or colour rendition all though it is excellent in these areas. Where it surpasses smaller aperture binoculars is in the quality of the image. It is more about the clarity ,transparency and aberration free image it produces. It feels more like you are not looking through a binocular than any instrument I have ever used. It surprises me quite frankly you can not see that when here are four experienced birders that observe it but as you say all of our eyes are different. Henry's quote is on the Zeiss 8x56 FL which is still on the same format.

"Because it isn’t only about brightness. It’s about the quality of the image, and Swarovski’s 8x56 SLC offers perhaps the best image that I have seen in any binocular. Despite their considerable weight I found them almost impossible to put down."

"I looked through the 8x56 SLC at the UK Birdfair last year I thought it gave me the nicest view I have yet seen through a binocular."

"Good as the 8.5 SV is (and it's really very good, better than the equivalent SF to my eye), the big SLC is better optically I would say but you are giving up a fair amount of handling and weight for that image improvement. The SV is my general 'go to' binocular in most cases but I use the 10x56 when I know I need that bit more power/clarity and there is no doubt in my mind it's the better option for tracking very long distance raptors or following a fast flying bird over a darker cluttered background. FWIW, I thought the 10x50 SV was seriously good too but the SLC is just that bit better for me, albeit in a much larger package. The 8x56 SLC arguably has a yet better image"

"Now, does any of this matter when you simply look through the binoculars at 8x? To my delight the answer is yes. In daylight he 8x56 FL produces the sharpest, cleanest and most transparent image I’ve yet seen in a binocular. It’s very obvious comparing it to other binoculars tripod mounted, but even hand holding I’m always aware that the image is unusually fine by binocular standards. I wouldn’t have expected any binocular to make the 8x42FL, Nikon 7x50 Prostar and 8x32SE look mushy and dull in sunlight, but the 8x56 FL does it. Besides the reduced longitudinal CA and SA seen in star testing there is also a reduction in lateral color that is quite obvious in daylight. Lateral color is probably almost always what people are seeing when they complain about “color fringing” in binoculars. There is also a modest but welcome increase in the size of the “sweet spot” compared to the 8x42FL. Less lateral color and a bigger sweet spot are two more benefits that come from the higher objective focal ratio, because the less steep light cone allows the eyepiece to perform better off-axis. But, alas, edge of the field astigmatism is still this binocular’s weakest performance characteristic, just like the 8x42FL. The 7mm exit pupil also has a benefit in daylight. There is virtually complete freedom from “flare”. When bright reflections from the edge of the objective reach the eye they are out at the edge of a 7mm circle of light, so the flare tends to fall invisibly on the iris rather than entering the eye."


I am inclined to get a 8x42 Zeiss SF but before I do, I will definitely check out that 8x56 or 10x56 SLC just because you sold me on that idea.

And may end up with one.
 
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