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need a small set of binos (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter matemike
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WJC
Well-known member
Hi, Foss:
That, of course, is one of the selling points. However, that stubbiness comes at a price. Ask other amateur astronomers, telescope makers, or photography experts what results from reducing the f/ratio to make it that stubby.
I will give the German models a thumbs up on robustness. Even so, the first Steiner rep that came to me was proud to show me a Commander that was MANY TIMES out of the maximum tolerance for collimation. And with the prisms being cemented at the factory, I pointed out that if such an instrument were brought to me for repair, I couldn't do it cost-effectively.
That was a deal breaker for me. Some of their models are great glasses, but they're all longer. To each his own. :cat:
Cheers,
Bill
PS Are you related to the Seattle Foss family?
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Hi,
Steiner committed the Fero D12 - the 8x30 bins which the german army acquired to replace the Hensoldt DF. They were not serviceable (at all) and not as stable as promised... Plus the optics kinda sucked...
Which lead to the interesting situation that the DF never really was phased out since everybody did their best to keep their old DF in service - if needs be by paying a case of beer or two to the repair guys to fix it with some parts squirreled away...
Until the need for laser protection led to the introduction of the Fero D16 - once again from Hensoldt aka Zeiss military.
Joachim
Okay the Steiner (and federal army) approach back then was to request a cheaper binocular that would (could) not be repaired but be just thrown away if broken. I can imagine that some way more expensive top quality Zeiss-Hensoldt is in fact better and nicer to own.
But I have a Steiner 7x50 in use for over 30 years now and it is still as new. Maybe not the very peak alpha like some HT or Noctivid, Swaro or similar but working without any problem. It just doesn't need repairs or maintenance. Think of how soldiers use their stuff and something for a third of the price but with two thirds of the capabilities makes sense.
But I have a Steiner 7x50 in use for over 30 years now and it is still as new. Maybe not the very peak alpha like some HT or Noctivid, Swaro or similar but working without any problem. It just doesn't need repairs or maintenance. Think of how soldiers use their stuff and something for a third of the price but with two thirds of the capabilities makes sense.
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Well, actually it didn't work out since the D12 broke easily in normal use... broke like in half for a total loss... in situations which the old DF usually shrugged off or maybe needed some TLC from an optics guy like the ones in my platoon who always got those cases of beer for fixing the DF (I gladly helped them getting rid of the beer ;-)
The army admitted defeat and got the even more expensive Hensoldt D16 next...
Joachim
The army admitted defeat and got the even more expensive Hensoldt D16 next...
Joachim
WJC
Well-known member
Hi, Joachim:
In order to advance in many military organizations, I think you must PROVE you’re a nitwit. Once while picking up some optics for repair at the Coast Guard station In Seattle, I saw half a pallet of Mk 28s, 32s, and 45s that were destined for the government LANDFILL south of Bremerton. I asked why they were being discarded and was told they were obsolete. It told the officer in charge that lasting over 50 years should say plenty about their quality and ruggedness and that I had many repair parts for them, some hermetically sealed since the early 50s and that they would ALL be cost-effective to repair.
Still, some genius at the Pentagon just HAD to waste more tax-payer money ... and away they went to the landfill.
And, you being German, I am pleased that you mention the kind of things I have heard so many times before ... most Germans don’t buy Steiner. Even so, their product is better than their “shuck and jive” advertising.
Good advertising need not be accurate or even meaningful; it has only to be believed.” :cat:
Cheers,
Bill
dries1
Member
The FeroD-16,the narrow FOV of 7 degrees was a real letdown from the older DF 8X30 with a full degree more. I have and recommend the Docter (old EDF 7X40), I think this would be a good glass for the harbor pilot, unless he requires center focus.
The Steiner D-12 was a piece of $%#@, there I said it.
Andy W.
The Steiner D-12 was a piece of $%#@, there I said it.
Andy W.
ljclark
Active member
They should have gone to DRMO (Defense Reutilization and Marketing Office) where they would have been available to other federal agencies as well as state and local government (which includes schools and universities). Anything left over should have been auctioned.
The problem is that the Coast Guard isn't part of DoD and sometimes those nuances slipped by (less so these days). But it wouldn't have been a surprise to find out the some of those originally came from DoD.
ljclark
Active member
If the OP recovers from the tsunami of Binocracy, being a pilot, he should be able to explain it.
Edit: Hmmm. To keep folks from falling off the edge of their seats anticipating...
Wikipedia: "The 'Texas chicken' maneuver is known to mariners who regularly navigate large vessels on the Houston Ship Channel. As two vessels approach from opposite directions, both normally turn to starboard to allow water displaced by their bows to move the ships away from each other and from the channel's centerline. After they pass, the suction of the displaced water flowing in behind the ships naturally pulls them back toward the center of the waterway." This starts out looking like two vessels getting ready for a head-on collision -- like playing chicken with automobiles.
The Economist, Jul 31st 1997: "Once a ship starts out into the crowded Houston shipping channel, it has to keep going. This sometimes requires a dramatic procedure called the “Texas chicken”. Two large ships, steaming head-on at each other, break right at a given moment and trust their bow waves to keep them apart. Pilots sniff at laymen’s terror. 'Simple hydraulic forces,' they explain."
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Hi,
yeah plus the D16 comes with laser filters which is not great for civilian use... the view is quite tinted.
The Docter aka east german EDF is indeed also great working glass. Quite sharp to the edge of the (not too wide - but stil should be plenty for the o.p at 7.5 deg or 425ft/1000y) field. Huge eye relief for everybody - if you cannot use an EDF, you will not find a pair of bins to accommodate you. Plus it's waterproof to absurd levels and can be used as a blunt weapon or to drive in nails.
The EDF has a quite pronounced yellow tint though which some might not like - and it weights around 1kg plus it's also quite collectible which is why I didn't recommend it.
The Docter is available new for a reasonable price and has a neutral color rendition tough - didn't think of that one.
Here is a comparison by BF member Holger Merlitz of the DF 8x30, the EDF and the KOMZ BPO 7x30...
http://www.holgermerlitz.de/edf7x40.html
Joachim
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Foss
Well-known member
Hey Bill,
No relation, it's just a nickname my younger brothers gave to me (short for fossil).
The Steiner 7x50s are great for maritime use (that's a big part of my bino background), but I wouldn't necessarily pick them for astro use, nor for birding due to bulk and weight. Their focusing traits seem IMHO to favor maritime or general terrestrial instead. (The claim that you can focus them at 50 feet or so and everything beyond is in focus should be taken with a grain of salt. They should instead say "mostly of in focus.") That said, I've used other IF 7x50s, can't recall which off the top of my head, that seem to require constant focus fine tuning at various far distances.
If you're ever in San Diego, I'm always good for a cup of coffee.
Jack
The Steiners I was talking about are the 7x50 not the 8x30 (this small one carries the Fero D12 military designation). Mine are pretty old now and have not had laser filters. From my experience they are quite robust don't break easy under serious use and are not a piece of "something". They might not be the Mercedes more the Volkswagens but they get the job done. BTW huge numbers were acquired by the US (since desert storm back then) and the UK forces (more recently) as well. I'm certainly not a Steiner fanboy but some statements above sound too harsh to me.
Having learned now what "The 'Texas chicken' maneuver" is, I'd again suggest 7x50 as a good size for maritime pro use. Like the Fujinon 7x50 mentioned above. As a bonus they might be a bit better for stargazing as well if that has to fit in. Referring to Docter: They had some nice maritime binocular as well. The Navidoc. https://www.optics-trade.eu/en/docter-navidoc-7x50-b-ga.html They are not built new anymore but you might be able to find some good one at shops maybe.
PS: Corrected to D12 designation.
Having learned now what "The 'Texas chicken' maneuver" is, I'd again suggest 7x50 as a good size for maritime pro use. Like the Fujinon 7x50 mentioned above. As a bonus they might be a bit better for stargazing as well if that has to fit in. Referring to Docter: They had some nice maritime binocular as well. The Navidoc. https://www.optics-trade.eu/en/docter-navidoc-7x50-b-ga.html They are not built new anymore but you might be able to find some good one at shops maybe.
PS: Corrected to D12 designation.
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Hi,
Fero D12 = Steiner
Fero D16 = Hensoldt/Zeiss
not quite comparable - about as different as a pair of Steiner 7x50 and a pair of Fujinon FMT-SX2 7x50.
And yes, 7x50 is the standard marine size, but the o.p. asked specifically about a small and light pair of bins carry while scaling a rope ladder to use when the usual bridge 7x50 is unavailable, broken or too dirty to use safely.
Recommending a bulky and 1kg+ pair of 7x50 is not going to help him with that. A small pair is probably going to impose some compromises, but they're better than no bins.
Joachim
Fero D12 = Steiner
Fero D16 = Hensoldt/Zeiss
not quite comparable - about as different as a pair of Steiner 7x50 and a pair of Fujinon FMT-SX2 7x50.
And yes, 7x50 is the standard marine size, but the o.p. asked specifically about a small and light pair of bins carry while scaling a rope ladder to use when the usual bridge 7x50 is unavailable, broken or too dirty to use safely.
Recommending a bulky and 1kg+ pair of 7x50 is not going to help him with that. A small pair is probably going to impose some compromises, but they're better than no bins.
Joachim
I have a very nice old Nikon 7x50 Marine binocular bought secondhand, which has one of the three different compass options.
It really was a surprise how relaxing the image was.
I am not sure how rectilinear 7x50 eyepieces are, but the centre portion might not cause distortion.
It really was a surprise how relaxing the image was.
I am not sure how rectilinear 7x50 eyepieces are, but the centre portion might not cause distortion.
Thank you all for the responses. I have entered binocuracy overload.
exactly, I'm looking for small and light. It is almost a given that there will be a set of Fujinons or Steiners available on every ship's bridge, but they are occasionally ruffed up and tough to use due to broken eye cups, a cracked or scratched lens, etc. and I cannot afford to catch pink eye.
For now these borrowed Swarovski 8x20B's are filling the need well, but I don't want to hang on to them forever. I need to return them. And before returning them I'd like to purchase a pair of my own. I hunt too, so my new bins might fill a role there as well. I already own a set of SLC 15x56 and a Swarovski ATX with the 60mm objective. I love my green glass with rubberized armor.
I'm still pretty much between the:
Swarovski CL 8x30 Companions (I'm assuming the best glass in my list, but most expensive) (17.3oz and 396' FOV)
Zeiss 8x25 Victory (14.5oz and 357' FOV)
Zeiss 8x32 Terra ED (18oz and 405' FOV) (least expensive by a lot, but is the FOV realistic and crisp?)
Yes sir, that's it.
exactly, I'm looking for small and light. It is almost a given that there will be a set of Fujinons or Steiners available on every ship's bridge, but they are occasionally ruffed up and tough to use due to broken eye cups, a cracked or scratched lens, etc. and I cannot afford to catch pink eye.
For now these borrowed Swarovski 8x20B's are filling the need well, but I don't want to hang on to them forever. I need to return them. And before returning them I'd like to purchase a pair of my own. I hunt too, so my new bins might fill a role there as well. I already own a set of SLC 15x56 and a Swarovski ATX with the 60mm objective. I love my green glass with rubberized armor.
I'm still pretty much between the:
Swarovski CL 8x30 Companions (I'm assuming the best glass in my list, but most expensive) (17.3oz and 396' FOV)
Zeiss 8x25 Victory (14.5oz and 357' FOV)
Zeiss 8x32 Terra ED (18oz and 405' FOV) (least expensive by a lot, but is the FOV realistic and crisp?)
If the OP recovers from the tsunami of Binocracy, being a pilot, he should be able to explain it.
Edit: Hmmm. To keep folks from falling off the edge of their seats anticipating...
Wikipedia: "The 'Texas chicken' maneuver is known to mariners who regularly navigate large vessels on the Houston Ship Channel. As two vessels approach from opposite directions, both normally turn to starboard to allow water displaced by their bows to move the ships away from each other and from the channel's centerline. After they pass, the suction of the displaced water flowing in behind the ships naturally pulls them back toward the center of the waterway." This starts out looking like two vessels getting ready for a head-on collision -- like playing chicken with automobiles.
The Economist, Jul 31st 1997: "Once a ship starts out into the crowded Houston shipping channel, it has to keep going. This sometimes requires a dramatic procedure called the “Texas chicken”. Two large ships, steaming head-on at each other, break right at a given moment and trust their bow waves to keep them apart. Pilots sniff at laymen’s terror. 'Simple hydraulic forces,' they explain."
Yes sir, that's it.
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ljclark
Active member
Twenty years in the Coast Guard, four at Marine Safety Office Galveston, will do that to a person.
Alexis Powell
Natural history enthusiast
The FOV of the Zeiss 8x25 Victory is 390' not 357'. The latter was the spec for the discontinued 8x20 model.
Realistic? Yes, I think so. Crisp? Absolutely not. I do not recommend it.
Since you say that you like the Swarovski 8x20, and that it works for you, I'd think you'd love the optical performance of either the Zeiss 8x25 Victory or the Swarovski 8x30 CL (new), and both should be much nicer to handle as well. The Zeiss would be much closer to what you are using now in size and weight. Most would argue that the Swarovski 8x30 would be a better choice for overall use, even if for no other reason than its larger eyecups for those who don't wear glasses (Though you seem to be getting on well enough with the little 8x20 eyecups).
--AP
I recently purchased the Zeiss Victory 8x25. The binocular without strap weighs closer to 10 oz, and the field of view is 390', both according to Zeiss.com. This is consistent with what I see and have measured. There are reviews and discussion in the Zeiss sub-forum. I have only had the binocular a few days, but so far I am very pleased. I'm surprised that such a small objective can be so satisfying to use in the field. The major complaint I've seen is that there is too much eye relief for non-eyeglass wearers because the eyepieces are small and penetrate more deeply into the eye sockets. I don't wear glasses while observing and don't have a problem with it.
All three binoculars that you mention have been well reviewed. I believe that the Zeiss Victory and new Swarovski Companion are in a different class than the Zeiss Terra ED, but the 8x25 Terra seems to be the best of the Terra line. There are long recent threads about the Swarovski Companion and Zeiss Victory in the Swarovski and Zeiss sub-forums.
I have yet to test the 8x25 at night, and I am really curious to see how it performs since it is surprisingly good during the day. But since a binocular with 50mm objectives gathers 4x as much light, any decent 50mm binocular is going "see more" under sufficiently dim lighting conditions. That is simply a price you pay for light weight and compact.
Alan