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The tricky job of searching for tripods (1 Viewer)

i've always preferred clips myself. Seem less subject to 'creep' than twists, and easier to operate when your hands are cold or gloved. I've never damaged myself using them - i just undo all three at once, let gravity drop the leg and close them. I suppose it's what you're used to though...

My preference is for lever locks over collar locks. That said, I think that a lot of that is a Coke vs Pepsi / Ford vs Chevy / Nikon vs Canon thing.

To your main point, just the other evening my brother and I were in an e-mail exchange. He's looking for a new CF tripod and got into exactly the same death spiral. I happened to mention two of my Manfrotto CFs and he realized that he was comparing prices at two different sellers -- but was also comparing a two different series. |8.|
 
Yup - i went through that particular unpleasantness. The overall series name, then the model number (which often relates to the previous series, but with a 2 instead of a 1 at the front of the serial, but with some fundamental differences).
Anyhow - it's over. I picked up the Benro TAD 18C (which i think is probably discontinued now) and it is everything it is supposed to be, so it was worth the three nights of frustration and probably about 10 hours of comparisons.
However, while changing the gear over, i 'accidentally' managed to disassemble the Manfrotto fluid head, resulting in a further three hours of working out what did what, and how it went together again. Surprised to find the pan lock is bascially like a bicycle's brake block, and the central bolt that holds the thing together has a bearing on whether the pan releases or not, and you're not supposed to completely tighten it.
Every day's a school day....
 
Hi John,



I fully agree, and in fact I was thinking along slightly different lines: My idea was that with generally well-designed tripods, there'd typically be a ratio between tripod weight and payload weight that shouldn't be too small to ensure proper stiffness.

I thought maybe there'd be a rule of thumb based on birders' collective experience.

To illustrate, here's the actual data for my setup:

- Kowa TSN-883 with stay-on-case and quick release plate: 2165 g
- Velbon D-600 aluminium tripod including head: 2050 g
- Velbon PH-368 head (manufacturer's data): 640 g

Useful load:
- Scope with head: 2805 g

Tripod structure:
- 1410 g

I'd say that this combination is "fairly stiff", which unfortunately is not based on any measured data.

In terms of the hypothetical rule of thumb I hoped for, the data point would be:

- Aluminium tripod: Structural weight 50% of useful load for good stiffness.

Looking for a carbon fibre tripod to replace the aluminium one, I'm hoping for a weight reduction. However, what I don't know is how much of a weight reduction I can reasonably hope for without sacrificing stiffness.

Regards,

Henning

If you could find a used Gitzo GT3530LS (or similar) at reasonable money then that would be my personal choice for scope use. They do crop up occasionally - but you will need to be patient! The newer incarnations are "better" (3532/3533) but they are more expensive and heavier. The 3530LS is claimed to weight 1.8 Kilo - mine tipped my scales at 1.7 Kilo and they will support pretty much anything - including you. They damp down vibration extremely well too. The larger models are better but also heavier, I found this tripod to be my personal favorite for scope use.

These days I use a Gitzo GT4542LS (well it was going cheap) and like it very much but it is 2.3 Kilo and only marginally better for scope use.
 
Too much is made about damping of CF IMO. The joints and locks and # of sections of a tripod make much more of a difference than tube materials.

Good tripods like Gitzo and their better knock-offs have bronze bushings and a very tight fit in their hinges. They also have twist locks which lock the legs together better and certainly stiffer than flip locks. Twist locks make for a more compact folded tripod and don't get caught/hung up on things as well.

Of course if you have one of the more robust Gitzo or good clone with carbon tubes, all the better.

I agree with John that many people are under tripod'd (my word), if that's what he's saying. A high power scope is a demanding situation for a light tripod because one is looking through it in real time. The (usually) short duration of exposure with a camera and long lens photographing nature, being lower magnifications as well, makes for less demand on the tripod as compared to a scope.

To the OP,
I agree, it does take a while to compare specs of tripods. Millimeters, centimeters, inches, inconsistent info between manufacturers and sellers.

Reviews are pretty much worthless IMO as there are too many variables as to how people use them and the weight to be placed on things like stiffness and stability in wind, and so on.

One more thing, I don't think one has to spend serious money as in Gitzo or RRS to get top performance. One of the very good clones, Induro or Benro for example, along with a Markins or Arca ballhead, for instance, are damn hard to better.

For fluid head requirements I've modified two Manfrotto #3130s with Arca clamps to get rid of that miserable Manfrotto system of plates and receptacles.

My two bits. Cheers.
 
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Hi John,

If you could find a used Gitzo GT3530LS (or similar) at reasonable money then that would be my personal choice for scope use. They do crop up occasionally - but you will need to be patient!

Thanks a lot for the recommendation!

Does the GT3530LS have grub screws to positively lock the tripod head into place?

That seems to be another parameter that's hard to find on the manufacturer's web sites.

Regards,

Henning
 
Yes, some tripods are too light für your scope: not because of vibration damping (but also), but the standing safety is not so good. In my beginning of scoping, I coupled an 80mm-scope with a Gitzo Series 1 (I think 1127), and sometimes I knocked it down (not much funny…). You've 2.8kg, so I recommend min. 2kg-tripod (or a very sturdy Systematiy series III, 3532S). Also the same class Feisol or Sirui should work steady. But look for the leg-angle: für my MM4-60 I got the Opticron-tripod, and the standing seemed not so good like my 3530-combo - reason: the leg-angle are smaller (look here: http://www.juelich-bonn.com/jForum/...filename=Gitzo-Opticron-komp_-_2017-11-17.JPG). The better, sturdier and more expensive 2532S stands very much better (and has better vibrationcontrol) - 23.5° vs. 20° leg-angle.
I've a 3530&2380 under a DiaScope85 and it's sturdy and stands good. So - don't get too less weight under your fine scope…

stand strong
Manfred
 
Hi Kevin,



Do you mean that they are using a tripod too light for the scope?

Regards,

Henning

Yes.
A taller tripod has advantages, and they weigh more.
A tall tripod will reduce your need to use the center column, this lends stability.
A taller tripod has a wider footprint (stance), which lends stability.

Weight, in itself isn't a guarantee of much. Height of the tripod and diameter of the legs are what help make a stable tripod.

What I tried to convey in my previous post is that when choosing a design look for things I mention. An example, and not to pick on them specifically, are Manfrotto tripods. Pound for pound, kilo for kilo, they just aren't as stable as the collet (twist lock) designs I mention. Their joints are sloppy by comparison and their flip locks don't engage the legs with as much surface area.


I just sold my last Manfrotto Tripod, an MF4, which was one of my heaviest tripods. With legs extended but not the center column I could grab the spider (where the legs meet at the top) and twist torsionally with one hand and the tripod would rotate some. My Benros do not do this. When using the center column things get worse because they use a single point clamp and not a collet.

Last, don't forget about the hook at the bottom of the center column on any good tripod. Hanging a weight from that will make your tripod punch well above it's weight class and is especially useful in windy conditions. A Backpack or camera bag with gear in it usually suffices. You can also take along a small stuff sack, virtually weightless, and put a rock in it out in the field to hang from the hook.
 
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I have an older Manfrotto Bogen 3236 tripod with a Manfrotto 501 head on it and it handled this Orion 100ED really well. Also my Nikon 82ED & 50ED spotting scopes. I do have a lighter wt. tripod as well. ;)
 

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Hi John,
Thanks a lot for the recommendation!

Does the GT3530LS have grub screws to positively lock the tripod head into place?

That seems to be another parameter that's hard to find on the manufacturer's web sites.

Regards,

Henning

Just checked one of my old Top Plates (the 3530 does not have a center column) and there is a grub screw to prevent rotation of the head. I had to check because I have never used this facility! I have been using Gitzo Systematic tripods since 2006, with older and newer top plates, and have yet to have a head work loose.

Note the comment above about the lack of a center column on this (and other Systematic) tripod - this is where they loose weight and gain rigidity.
 
One more thing, I don't think one has to spend serious money as in Gitzo or RRS to get top performance. One of the very good clones, Induro or Benro for example, along with a Markins or Arca ballhead, for instance, are damn hard to better.

For fluid head requirements I've modified two Manfrotto #3130s with Arca clamps to get rid of that miserable Manfrotto system of plates and receptacles.

My two bits. Cheers.

Do you live in the US? I ask because my, current, 4 Gitzo tripods cost less than a single RRS tripod here in the UK - and three of them were bought brand new!

I agree with your comment on Induro and Benro but they are just too expensive for me. Great tripods but pricey! For reference my most expensive tripod is my Gitzo GT4542LS bought new (from Gitzo UK) was £375, though they did have a sale on.
 
Do you live in the US? I ask because my, current, 4 Gitzo tripods cost less than a single RRS tripod here in the UK - and three of them were bought brand new!

I agree with your comment on Induro and Benro but they are just too expensive for me. Great tripods but pricey! For reference my most expensive tripod is my Gitzo GT4542LS bought new (from Gitzo UK) was £375, though they did have a sale on.

Yes, I live in the US. Your GT4542LS is just under $1000 here. RRS tripods are even more. Benro is a bargain IMO, at about 35-45% of a Gitzo, with Induro a wee bit more. Induro and Benro are the same company BTW.

I've had two Gitzo tripods in the past and though they are the original of that design type, and still excellent quality, the current Benro and Induro tripods are their equal IMO. RRS is fantastically overrated and over priced, also IMO.
 
Been out today with the Benro TAD 18C, and very pleased with it. Not the best conditions to test a light rig, with the wind coming from the NE onto the Suffolk coast at about 15mph. Seemed very stable, although wouldn't use it generally in these conditions for seawatching. Got a Swaro ATS65 mounted on it, with one of the Manfrotto light-weight fluid heads. It's my first experience of carbon fibre, and it certainly made a difference carrying it. In a Scopac, it was hard to remember it was there, and was certainly easy to carry fully-extended over a shoulder. It cost £199, which was one of the principal appeals, as it seemed most CF legs got to ridiculous prices.
Going back to my original point - this was purchased as a summer / hot weather + long walks / travel set-up, and wouldn't replace the Viking Plus TR100 aluminium legs + Manfrotto 500 head for anything in serious weather.
I've never had a tripod go over that i wasn't at fault for (catching my foot on one of the legs once at least), but surely the weight of the scope + head must have something to do with stability? The weight driving down then being diffrayed through the legs must be a major factor..
 
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Hi Manfred,

Yes, some tripods are too light für your scope: not because of vibration damping (but also), but the standing safety is not so good. In my beginning of scoping, I coupled an 80mm-scope with a Gitzo Series 1 (I think 1127), and sometimes I knocked it down (not much funny…). You've 2.8kg, so I recommend min. 2kg-tripod (or a very sturdy Systematiy series III, 3532S).

Thanks, that makes great sense! I have knocked over my tripods twice, and in both cases, it was my fault. Fortunately, nothing bad happened!

Seems your take of the weight relationship is that the tripod (without head) weight should 80% of the useful load?

Regards,

Henning
 
Hi John,

I have been using Gitzo Systematic tripods since 2006, with older and newer top plates, and have yet to have a head work loose.

Hm, do you have any special fastening technique?

Or maybe I should simply ask if anyone has an idea what I might be doing wrong so that the head works loose easily all the time! :-/

I've thought of applying loctite to the head, but as the Gitzo in question is actually my girlfriend's, that's not an option as she has veto'd "glue".

Regards,

Henning
 
Hi Henning -
I know i've mentioned this before, but perhaps not in this thread, but i put a turn of PTFE tape round the thread of the screw. This is the white, stretchy tape that plumbers use to seal threads. This would be the one for water, not for gas, as that is too thick.
Would be interesting to see if that fixes the problem.
 
Hi,

Hi Henning -
I know i've mentioned this before, but perhaps not in this thread, but i put a turn of PTFE tape round the thread of the screw. This is the white, stretchy tape that plumbers use to seal threads.

That's a great tip ... we have still a spool of the stuff lying around unused as it didn't work at all on the plumbing. (Bast fibre did the job just fine, on the first try, in the end.)

It would be very satisfying if the PTFE stuff that gave us so much trouble would turn out to be good for fixing an completely different problem - I'll try it at the next opportunity! :)

Thanks a lot!

Regards,

Henning
 
Hi John,



Hm, do you have any special fastening technique?

Or maybe I should simply ask if anyone has an idea what I might be doing wrong so that the head works loose easily all the time! :-/

I've thought of applying loctite to the head, but as the Gitzo in question is actually my girlfriend's, that's not an option as she has veto'd "glue".

Regards,

Henning

I use Gitzo top plates from the older series (just painted with Hammerite), the next series with the "Safe Lock" (some sort of hard plastic(?) insert on top) and the latest ones. I just screw the head down quite firmly (not silly tight) and forget about it - works just fine!

I have 4 top plates, one of the old types, two of the not quite so old type and one of the latest - zero slipping issues with any of them. Naturally the locking grub screws can be used but I have not found a need for them.

P.S. Don't put anything on the threads!
 
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PTFE tape isn't going to do any harm to threads. It's just some soft rubbery stuff, and i've used it to seal joints on woodwind and reed instruments for years. If it tears when you finally take the thing apart, you just pick of the bits with tweezers.
I have used thread lock stuff in the past - it is only some reinforcement, and not a total lock-down (i.e. you can still unscrew it). Never noticed any damage to anything as a result.
I think the machining of some aspects of scopes is not as exact as it should be.
The pan screw on a Manfrotto MVH500 head belonging to a friend kept falling out. After he'd replaced 3, i made him a replacement using a bolt, a washer and a wingnut, which has stayed in place ever since.
Another incident saw the thread adaptor inside the foot of an ATX65 shear on its first use, rendering the scope completely useless on a foreign trip. It seemed to just be one of the cheap stainless ones - you'd have thought they might have put a brass one in a £2000 device.
You pay a lot for this stuff, but some of the smaller components leave a lot to be desired.
 

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