Caterpillars only for ID (1 Viewer)

brianhstone said:

Perhaps I should have explicitly said I didn't think it was that. I was trying to draw attention to the shape/rest posture, which is a relatively unusual one in macros. I thought it might help narrow the field. It is not a moth I recall seeing anything like before.

Looks like Mike has hit on a much more promising option in any case.

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Sorry, Brian, now that I've reread your posting I see that it was the posture that you were referring to rather than the pattern.
Ken

Here are a couple more caterpillars for larva experts to get their teeth into - two pics of each. I have had a good look for the first with little success but haven't yet had a chance to search for the geometer.

The first was feeding on Primula and the second was on dead material and hanging from a thread off of Honeysuckle growing through Alder. I think the two geometers are the same species.

All were in my garden where there were a large number of Lesser Yellow Underwing larvae but none of the recent well-fed Angle Shades present recently. I guess these are now pupating.

I've had a chance to look at the geometer now and I reckon the third pic is an Idea sp., probably Small Dusty Wave (I. seriata). The last pic may not be the same species.

The big question Brian is; do you still have the two Geo.?

I have not dealt with these two, but if Kimmo has them correctly identified, then I would go more for Idaea muricata than I. seriata.

Your caterpillar appears to have dark crosses going between the segments ie. the last two points on the previous segment are "joined" to their diagonal equal on the next segment. This occurs on all main segments, and can be seen clearly on Kimmo's picture. Forget about the white looking side line, I believe it is a result of flash photography as there is no mention of this sideline in the discription I have read.

I. seriata (in 1910 book the larva was unknown!) I can only work from Kimmo's picture, and in it I see an almost linear/chevron pattern occuring between the segments going in the direction of the hind end.

Regarding the hind end, your's again does look more like I. muricata although both are very similiar.

Bearing in mind, there are a fatal 2 Idaea MIA on Kimmo's site which we cannot compare against, but maybe do not occur in GB (sorry I didn't check up on that point) I would lean towards it being I. muricata, and try for pupation/hatching.

The second Geo. could be one of many at the moment, although it seems to have a bit of an underhang on a forward segment which could develop into something characteristic.

If you have them still, think about bringing them on a bit, and I attach the Jar system I am using this year for individuals or pairs found on bushes/trees. With all due respect to Harry, whose buckets helped me with final design tweaks, I call them my "Harry Glasses". (Harry, I hope you don't mind!)

Stones in bottom, then net piece with hole for straw(stops larva from entering watersump), straw, then earth, leaving an inch free at top. Straw and stones are to have better control with soil moisture (ie. in dry summertime water comes up to a pupae not down on a pupae, don't put alot of water in at a time, my first trial resulted in soil saturation despite the waterlevel being low in the sump), and aeriation in jar, the inch leaves room for a moth to hatch, ie take the cage away after pupation, cut the straw down to jar top level, and cover with a net piece allowing good airing. Just stick larva and twigs with leafs in top of glass, clean out and replace twigs every 2 to 3 days. I often stick a Sycamore leave or piece of one in the glass to catch most of droppings.

Remember and stick a bit of tissue in top of straw so that the larva doesn't vanish down it!!

I will now have a bash at the Noct., those two dark patches on the second last segment should be the key.

Jim

Thanks very much Jim. First thing is I don't think I'm up to much more rearing and I probably couldn't relocate the larvae now in any case.

I would love to have I. muricata but I just don't think my garden is breeding habitat. The larvae require marsh cinquefoil. I. seriata on the other hand is very common in the garden and the larva was at the base of Ivy, the main foodplant.

The second one may have to remain unidentified but I will give them a go on ukmoths first.

Fair do's Brian. Right, I know what I am doing at dinner time, off to look at our wonderful ivy covered trees and see if I can locate one for comparison!!

Jim

Seems the noctuid is Square-spotted Clay (Xestia rhomboidea). This is a rather scarce species so I'm waiting for further confirmation (although it was identified by Robin Field of Butterfly Conservation who has been studying them for the past couple of years).

It must be easy to overlook the adults among Double Square-spots (X. triangulum) but I've never seen one.

Glad to hear you have direction Brian, I have just gone through the books downstairs and could not get any fix. I was just about to post up a one I got at weekend to compare it as it is another rather indistinct(other than it is indistinct) caterpillar. So will carry on and compare it.

Is Robin a member? Just wondering, as you appear to be in touch with him offline.

Jim

He is known to another member of my local moth e-group. Seems that it is not as scarce as once thought, although it is "Notable-B" and rather locally distributed.

"It's 'Notable B', so not particularly widespread, but the species stronghold is in parts of East Anglia.

"It's not strongly attracted by light traps, and comes late in the night. One of Robins findings was that it is less scarce than originally thought, but targetting recording efforts to the flight period late July/early Aug and larval searching confirmed it from most suitable woodland habitat in South Cambs/Essex/Herts/Suffolk and north Cambs/Peterborough/Northants - absent from Fenland in the middle. The larvae were found mostly on ground flora, particularly nettle but also Dog's Mercury and
Primula, but the adults were found to lay on tree leaves such as Elm. Presumably the larvae drop to the ground in the autumn and start feeding on the new growth of ground plants. We had a few adults in our garden last year but have not been able to find larvae. Five of our records were at sugar or flowers, one came to light."

Thanks Brian.
Good info to remember.
I'm off now, have a good weekend.

:bounce:

Jim

Just to show an update on the last caterpillar posted, I took this one this morning, it has developed these dark spots in the last couple of days, cool!

The chestnut coloured, I found last Saturday, it will no doubt start to go through a few changes yet.

Jim

The caterpillar which now has black spots is 99.9% certain Broad-bordered Yellow Underwing, Noctua fimbriata.

Jim

I couldn't get a decent pic of the first pair of larvae shown here before they went walk-about and I lost them. I think they are Angle Shades.

I also saw this geometer again last night. It was hanging it exactly the same position as two weeks ago and doesn't appear to have changed much in that time. The original pic is repeated here in case anyone has a brainwave.

brianhstone said:

I couldn't get a decent pic of the first pair of larvae shown here before they went walk-about and I lost them. I think they are Angle Shades.

I also saw this geometer again last night. It was hanging it exactly the same position as two weeks ago and doesn't appear to have changed much in that time. The original pic is repeated here in case anyone has a brainwave.

Click to expand...

I'd buy angle shades for the 'wheels'
Ken

I found three larvae on a foxglove last night. Two were the same. All about 1" long. Any ideas on IDs, please?
Ken

The second one is infesting my garden at the moment on Foxglove, Hollyhock, White Violet, Periwinkle, etc., etc. It is Lesser Yellow Underwing (Noctua comes).
http://thenaturalstone.blogspot.com/2005/03/early-spring-moths.html

Ken, I think you'll find the first one is as my 99.9% certain Broad-bordered Yellow Underwing, Noctua fimbriata. The black dots beside white vent, appear to be reserved for it only.

'..in case anyone has a brainwave.'
Brian, I know you really want to do it, so do it! Stick some soil in a jar, wet it, stick a nice piece of greenery in, sycamore, and/or blackthorn, and some grass for luck, then put the caterpillar in before it starves!! Photograph it again after a week of fattening. Please, with cream on top(thats cream on the 'Please', not the greenery for any ameteurs out there).

"All I wanna do is, do it!" (Kevin and Perry go Large, 2000)

Jim

OK, Jim. I was beginning to weaken. Cream-fed moth coming right up

Wandered Scot said:

Ken, I think you'll find the first one is as my 99.9% certain Broad-bordered Yellow Underwing, Noctua fimbriata. The black dots beside white vent, appear to be reserved for it only.

'..in case anyone has a brainwave.'
Brian, I know you really want to do it, so do it! Stick some soil in a jar, wet it, stick a nice piece of greenery in, sycamore, and/or blackthorn, and some grass for luck, then put the caterpillar in before it starves!! Photograph it again after a week of fattening. Please, with cream on top(thats cream on the 'Please', not the greenery for any ameteurs out there).

"All I wanna do is, do it!" (Kevin and Perry go Large, 2000)

Jim

Click to expand...

Thanks, Brian and Jim,
I'll try and mature them. Do you know if it's safe to keep them together in the same cage or will they eat each other
Ken

Ken, I don't know but probably not!

Before last Sept. I would have laughed at the suggestion, but then I got Hannibal my Cannibal, Noct.Hel. Heliocoverpa armigera, it ate 5 before I found out the truth!! the first two small ones I just thought had escape somehow then I looked in 2 days later and photographed and videoed this! The poor burger was still alive too!! When I emptied the tub, there was the last 3 head shields, the only thing it couldn't eat!! All of them were Heliocoverpa armigera

I removed a very traumatised mate of it hiding below a leaf at the bottom! That said I mix alot of mine in the same tub, up to pupation, and just make sure they have plenty of alternative food. I think the problem with Hannibal was what they were feeding on, it was a very strong smelling flower plant, and it may have affected the normal senses, I just don't know.

Cheers

Jim