Shame on Swarovski: no 7x roof! (1 Viewer)

jan van daalen · Dec 9, 2014

dalat said:
I have no estimates myself. But if the hunting market outnumbers by far the birding market, I wonder why Zeiss clearly dedicates its new flagship binocular to birders...

Considering the Dutch market, my guess would be that 5% is hunting (and still we are a major player in binoculars for hunting purposes); birding will be 10%; another 5% for overall use and 80% for safari.
It's just a matter in which field the retailer profiles itself.

Jan

peter kitchener · Dec 9, 2014

I believe that Zeiss showed the way with the 7x42 FL, time for the others to better that, and please at least 20mm ER.

plc22: The Nikon EDG (II) 7x42 has an eye relief of 22mm and less distortion than the Zeiss 7x42FL, and I think, better ergonomics. Have you looked through a pair?

ceasar · Dec 9, 2014

jan van daalen said:
Considering the Dutch market, my guess would be that 5% is hunting (and still we are a major player in binoculars for hunting purposes); birding will be 10%; another 5% for overall use and 80% for safari.
It's just a matter in which field the retailer profiles itself.

Jan

Wow! Jan,

80% will be purchased for Safaris?

Not all safari goers will need or want an SF of course, and not all of them will go on a safari every year but you still should think about branching out into that business!

Bob

jan van daalen · Dec 9, 2014

ceasar said:
Wow! Jan,

80% will be purchased for Safaris?

Not all safari goers will need or want an SF of course, and not all of them will go on a safari every year but you still should think about branching out into that business!

Bob

Bob,

The figures from Schiphol (main airport Holland) show that 200.000 people travel (for holiday purposes) to the African continent. This number grows every year. 9% of them go for a second/third etc time. 140.000 of them are Dutch (a lot of foreign airliners fly to Africa via Schiphol).
Almost 100% of our safari customers buy A-fabric.
The potential in safari is much bigger than in hunting/birding.

Jan

sako · Dec 10, 2014

dalat said:
I have no estimates myself. But if the hunting market outnumbers by far the birding market, I wonder why Zeiss clearly dedicates its new flagship binocular to birders...

Is it really their flagship model? I thought it was one of their two flagship models, designed for the birders who appreciate a flat FOV with a balance that is advantageous whilst standing. It doesn't have the low light performance of the HT which is more important for hunters who generally are sitting down when glassing for game.

While my Swarovski EL 8X32 SV has a flat FOV it's of no real advantage to me. My Zeiss HT 10x42 is sharper and has better low light performance but is of course heavier and more bulky, which is why I own the 8x32 SV.

sako · Dec 10, 2014

jan van daalen said:
Considering the Dutch market, my guess would be that 5% is hunting (and still we are a major player in binoculars for hunting purposes); birding will be 10%; another 5% for overall use and 80% for safari.
It's just a matter in which field the retailer profiles itself.

Jan

Jan, that's amazing. Perhaps your customers are trying to escape the Dutch winter and want a change after previously visiting Spain, the Greek Isles etc. Saying, "we've been on an African safari" sounds so cool, for want of a better word, than, "we went to Majorca".

Then of course there's the animals and one should be armed with quality optics for observing them from the Land Rover.

etudiant · Dec 10, 2014

jan van daalen said:
Bob,

The figures from Schiphol (main airport Holland) show that 200.000 people travel (for holiday purposes) to the African continent. This number grows every year. 9% of them go for a second/third etc time. 140.000 of them are Dutch (a lot of foreign airliners fly to Africa via Schiphol).
Almost 100% of our safari customers buy A-fabric.
The potential in safari is much bigger than in hunting/birding.

Jan

Jan,

Thank you so much for injecting some real numbers into this discussion.
I certainly had no idea that there was such a large safari travelers market.
That creates a big premium optics opportunity.

Here in the Eastern US, hunting is the 'real man's' sport, with maybe 20 million participants. We are plagued with an absurd abundance of white tailed deer (no natural predators left), so hunting is easy and even cost effective. (The deer get up to 200 pounds, 40 pounds of meat from a carcass is possible.)
The preference for 10x binoculars among US hunters may simply reflect the other factor in deer hunting here, the desire for a 10 point or better rack.
A 6-7x glass will offer a wider field, arguably more useful in the bush, but the 10x will show the rack in better detail.

In theory, there are 50 million bird watchers in this country, by Audubon count, but that includes many who just put out some seed occasionally. Active birders are a much smaller group, maybe a tenth that number or less.
Most are not wealthy, so they buy what they can afford, not alphas.

Based on your input, I'd expect the US binocular mix to be much leaner than what you are achieving in Holland. Maybe ProudPapa would chime in and either destroy or verify this conclusion.

perterra · Dec 10, 2014

etudiant said:
Jan,

Thank you so much for injecting some real numbers into this discussion.
I certainly had no idea that there was such a large safari travelers market.
That creates a big premium optics opportunity.

Here in the Eastern US, hunting is the 'real man's' sport, with maybe 20 million participants. We are plagued with an absurd abundance of white tailed deer (no natural predators left), so hunting is easy and even cost effective. (The deer get up to 200 pounds, 40 pounds of meat from a carcass is possible.)
The preference for 10x binoculars among US hunters may simply reflect the other factor in deer hunting here, the desire for a 10 point or better rack.
A 6-7x glass will offer a wider field, arguably more useful in the bush, but the 10x will show the rack in better detail.

In theory, there are 50 million bird watchers in this country, by Audubon count, but that includes many who just put out some seed occasionally. Active birders are a much smaller group, maybe a tenth that number or less.
Most are not wealthy, so they buy what they can afford, not alphas.

Based on your input, I'd expect the US binocular mix to be much leaner than what you are achieving in Holland. Maybe ProudPapa would chime in and either destroy or verify this conclusion.

Last numbers I saw Texas alone has 1.5 million hunters, I know we spend about $6 billion annually on hunting within the state, that doesnt include those elk and mountain goat/big horn sheep hunts in the west. Not many safari folks here, a lot of birdwatchers but like you say, most are backyard watchers and spend little money on it other than seed.

Almost everyone I know uses 10X, and it's all stand hunting so weight and size arent an issue.

Pinewood · Dec 10, 2014

jan van daalen said:
Considering the Dutch market, my guess would be that 5% is hunting (and still we are a major player in binoculars for hunting purposes); birding will be 10%; another 5% for overall use and 80% for safari.
It's just a matter in which field the retailer profiles itself.

Jan

Hello Jan,

Which power binoculars do safari tourists buy? For a hide, 10x makes sense to me, but riding on the veldt should require a 7x. How do you think which may actually be purchased.
Happy bird watching,
Arthur :hi:

proudpapa56 · Dec 10, 2014

I think some of it here in central PA is not so much looking for a 10 point rack but just making sure they're legal in the first place. Pretty strict about minimum # of points (and PA hunters can correct me if wrong but a certain length also).

jan van daalen · Dec 10, 2014

Pinewood said:
Hello Jan,

Which power binoculars do safari tourists buy? For a hide, 10x makes sense to me, but riding on the veldt should require a 7x. How do you think which may actually be purchased.
Happy bird watching,
Arthur :hi:

Arthur,

We have an urban located store, so the choice of the binocular is primaraly based on indoors impressions and streetview. This means they buy the one that is a compromise. The 7 is most steady and the 10 the most less. This means most of them go for the 8.5/8x.

Jan

jan van daalen · Dec 10, 2014

sako said:
Jan, that's amazing. Perhaps your customers are trying to escape the Dutch winter and want a change after previously visiting Spain, the Greek Isles etc. Saying, "we've been on an African safari" sounds so cool, for want of a better word, than, "we went to Majorca".

Then of course there's the animals and one should be armed with quality optics for observing them from the Land Rover.

Sako,

For most of them it is a once in the lifetime experience, often combined with something to celebtrate with next of kin, like 25 years together etc.

BTW, I see much more Landcruisers then Landrovers

.

Jan

jan van daalen · Dec 10, 2014

etudiant said:
Jan,

Thank you so much for injecting some real numbers into this discussion.
I certainly had no idea that there was such a large safari travelers market.
That creates a big premium optics opportunity.

Here in the Eastern US, hunting is the 'real man's' sport, with maybe 20 million participants. We are plagued with an absurd abundance of white tailed deer (no natural predators left), so hunting is easy and even cost effective. (The deer get up to 200 pounds, 40 pounds of meat from a carcass is possible.)
The preference for 10x binoculars among US hunters may simply reflect the other factor in deer hunting here, the desire for a 10 point or better rack.
A 6-7x glass will offer a wider field, arguably more useful in the bush, but the 10x will show the rack in better detail.

In theory, there are 50 million bird watchers in this country, by Audubon count, but that includes many who just put out some seed occasionally. Active birders are a much smaller group, maybe a tenth that number or less.
Most are not wealthy, so they buy what they can afford, not alphas.

Based on your input, I'd expect the US binocular mix to be much leaner than what you are achieving in Holland. Maybe ProudPapa would chime in and either destroy or verify this conclusion.

ET,

Yes this creates a big premium optics opportunity.
People do not pay tens of thousends of euro's for a safari trip and cut the costs on optics. Like I said before, for most of them it is a once in a lifetime experience. These people would never have bought premium optics if they didn't made this trip and most probably will not likely use this optic again.
Birders and hunters (as much appreciated as they are

) are long time users. For us they are the extra bonus. The main business is brought by on safari going customers which is a constantly changing fresh group in needs of premium optics.
The Dutch Birding Protection Society has 160.000 members. Most of these members (and other folks) buy their optics over there because BPS "takes care of the birds". A unique marketing strategy that can't be beaten, so this is not a serious customer group down here for other retailers.
If I take a look at a regular "birding class" I do see a lot of green, so yes premium optics are common for birders down here.

Jan

Troubador · Dec 10, 2014

peter kitchener said:
plc22: The Nikon EDG (II) 7x42 has an eye relief of 22mm and less distortion than the Zeiss 7x42FL, and I think, better ergonomics. Have you looked through a pair?

EDG is certainly worth a look although it isn't quite up there with FL on the FOV: 140m vs 148m.

Lee

james holdsworth · Dec 10, 2014

Talking with the owner of one of Ontario's biggest optics retailers, birders make up about 90% of ''A-fabric'' sales.

Safari-goers never came up in the discussion....although I suppose that North American birders / travelers are buying expensive bins to go to the tropics.

jan van daalen · Dec 10, 2014

james holdsworth said:
Talking with the owner of one of Ontario's biggest optics retailers, birders make up about 90% of ''A-fabric'' sales.

Safari-goers never came up in the discussion....although I suppose that North American birders / travelers are buying expensive bins to go to the tropics.

Yes........ but didn't Dennis left his Swarovski at home because he was afraid it got damaged when he went on safari:-O:-O:-O

plc22 · Dec 10, 2014

peter kitchener said:
plc22: The Nikon EDG (II) 7x42 has an eye relief of 22mm and less distortion than the Zeiss 7x42FL, and I think, better ergonomics. Have you looked through a pair?

I expect my next 7x to have a wider FOV than my 8x32 SV, at least 150m, it will be used for stargazing, never mind if it weighs as much as the SLC 7x42 provided I get what I need.
I have not looked through the Nikon unfortunately, only through the EDG 8x32 at a show, it was IMO second to none, I read bad things about an excess of CA for the 7x42 but cannot confirm if it's true or not.

ceasar · Dec 10, 2014

plc22 said:
I expect my next 7x to have a wider FOV than my 8x32 SV, at least 150m, it will be used for stargazing, never mind if it weighs as much as the SLC 7x42 provided I get what I need.
I have not looked through the Nikon unfortunately, only through the EDG 8x32 at a show, it was IMO second to none, I read bad things about an excess of CA for the 7x42 but cannot confirm if it's true or not.

Hello pic22,

I don't know how many 7mm binoculars exist which have a 150m FOV (The Zeiss 7x42 Victory FL was discontinued). However the Zeiss 8x42 Victory SF has a 148m FOV along with a flat field.

You should be able to live with its FOV if not the price!

Bob

plc22 · Dec 10, 2014

ceasar said:
Hello pic22,

I don't know how many 7mm binoculars exist which have a 150m FOV (The Zeiss 7x42 Victory FL was discontinued). However the Zeiss 8x42 Victory SF has a 148m FOV along with a flat field.

You should be able to live with its FOV if not the price!

Bob

Hello Bob,

It's the whole point, time to make a new one that will better the Zeiss 7x42 FL!

Not interested in an 8x power for astronomy, except perhaps for the new SLC HD 8x56, I would be ready to make an exception in that case only).
More seriously, I really want to stick to 7 times power with great EP, it's just so steady and comfortable!

Boogieshrew · Dec 10, 2014

plc22 said:
It's the whole point, time to make a new one that will better the Zeiss 7x42 FL!

Hear, hear! Uber 7x42 needed here.

Shame on Swarovski: no 7x roof! (1 Viewer)

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