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Nikon FF (and DX) Mirrorless rumours/ announcements

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Old Saturday 12th October 2019, 12:57   #326
JPAC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Maybe the design Sony used was purchased from a third party and perhaps it will also be available to Nikon?

However, I really hope it's f5.6 at the long end - it helps in all sorts of ways as light levels drop from peak.

I also hope they really concentrate on bringing it in at less than 2kg via some lightweight though weather sealed materials.

To match the small mirrorless bodies and grips it should also be as small and rearward weight balanced as possible, while delivering on that f5.6 long end. They should also also try to offer a level of sharpness above what the third party lenses already offer ......

Chosun
A small change of f (factor) stop in a long lens makes the lens so much bigger or smaller. Remember when the 400mm f2.8 came out, it was so much bigger than the f3.5 version. At 600mm it would be even greater. Most of the weight in telephotos is in the large front elements, so I can't think of how to put the weight in the back of the lens. 2kg is a big ask.

btw: I read your username as chosen swan for some reason. .
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Old Saturday 12th October 2019, 13:54   #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPAC View Post
A small change of f (factor) stop in a long lens makes the lens so much bigger or smaller. Remember when the 400mm f2.8 came out, it was so much bigger than the f3.5 version. At 600mm it would be even greater. Most of the weight in telephotos is in the large front elements, so I can't think of how to put the weight in the back of the lens. 2kg is a big ask.

btw: I read your username as chosen swan for some reason. .
Yes, a sub 2kg 200-600 with f5.6 at the long end is a big ask for sure, but with some design effort I don't think impossible .....

Most of the long supertelephoto exotics (Nikon lagging) have now gone to a lightweight objective long optical train design with dense grouping at the rear of the lens.

The f5.6 objective at 600mm would be 107mm diameter (the same as a 300mm f2.8). This would have a 26.5% bigger area than the 600/f6.3 objective of 95mm, so careful attention must be paid to the optical design to minimize weight at the front end. Thin aspherical elements and very high spec ED glass (synthetic fluorite equivalent) would be required along with lightweight chassis materials.

Using CFRP, Whisker Titanium Graphite, and Magnesium Metal Matrix Composites (either Carbon Fibre or Titanium reinforcement) should get the job done. The amount of these materials used is fairly minimal, and given that Sony wants about $2K for its 200-600, I think economically viable at that market point.

Manufacturers really need to realize that light weight is where it's at and get with the program. We already have sub 2kg Third Party 150-600 supertelephoto zooms of f6.3 aperture at the long end. The last thing we need is more duplication in the market ...... we need advancement !

For comparison, here are the lens construction schematics of some current lens offerings:

Nikon 200-500 f5.6 2300grms 268mm long 19 elements /12 groups
Click image for larger version

Name:	Nikon 200-500 f5.6.png
Views:	1
Size:	28.0 KB
ID:	707369

Sony 200-600 f5-f6.3 2115grms 318mm long 24 elements /17 groups
Click image for larger version

Name:	Sony 200-600 f5-f6.3.jpeg
Views:	4
Size:	26.0 KB
ID:	707370

Tamron G2 150-600 f5-f6.3 1990grms 258mm long 21 elements /13 groups
Click image for larger version

Name:	Tamron G2 150-600 f5-f6.3.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	27.0 KB
ID:	707371

Canon 600 f4L IS III 3050grms 448mm long 17 elements /13 groups
Click image for larger version

Name:	ef_600_f4l_iii_usm_01.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	77.5 KB
ID:	707372





Chosun

Last edited by Chosun Juan : Saturday 12th October 2019 at 14:58. Reason: Lens construction schematics
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Old Saturday 12th October 2019, 17:18   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Looking at that comparison picture - can you Imagine! a Full Frame sensor in that little Z50 body with pancake and compact zoom lenses ?! (I'm sure Nikon can't unfortunately :(

As I was reading the details of the Z50 for the first time it did strike me that the whole concept was reminiscent of the 1 series, in that it seems to have some handicaps, and no knockout killer blows. It seems Nikon wants it in its place and only in it's place. I hope the whole thing is not deja vu ...... again !

I really wish Nikon would resurrect the 1 series and un-hobble it so that it could compete. If only Nikon had made the Z mount's FFL 17mm like the 1 series there would have been some compatibility potential across 3 formats ! Nikon just wasn't thinking !

This is DPReview's take on Nikon's APS-C strategy (Canon too).
https://m.dpreview.com/opinion/41787...aps-c-strategy

I have to say that if this is anywhere close to the mark, then I have grave concerns for Nikon's, and the Industry's future. It seems APS-C development will again take place at snails pace, and the potential hobbled (yet again). They will still be protecting their Full Frame market segments as the whole lot is carted off to the grave dug by billion$ of cellphones .......

So much lost opportunity ......





Chosun
Its just a well-planned sop to keep us quiet as far as crop mirrorless go, although i see its shortcomings i ordered the twin pack purely because i need to consider a CX replacement, making it work should be a fun/challange though
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Old Sunday 13th October 2019, 06:27   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Yes, a sub 2kg 200-600 with f5.6 at the long end is a big ask for sure, but with some design effort I don't think impossible .....

Most of the long supertelephoto exotics (Nikon lagging) have now gone to a lightweight objective long optical train design with dense grouping at the rear of the lens.

The f5.6 objective at 600mm would be 107mm diameter (the same as a 300mm f2.8). This would have a 26.5% bigger area than the 600/f6.3 objective of 95mm, so careful attention must be paid to the optical design to minimize weight at the front end. Thin aspherical elements and very high spec ED glass (synthetic fluorite equivalent) would be required along with lightweight chassis materials.

Using CFRP, Whisker Titanium Graphite, and Magnesium Metal Matrix Composites (either Carbon Fibre or Titanium reinforcement) should get the job done. The amount of these materials used is fairly minimal, and given that Sony wants about $2K for its 200-600, I think economically viable at that market point.

Manufacturers really need to realize that light weight is where it's at and get with the program. We already have sub 2kg Third Party 150-600 supertelephoto zooms of f6.3 aperture at the long end. The last thing we need is more duplication in the market ...... we need advancement !

For comparison, here are the lens construction schematics of some current lens offerings:

Nikon 200-500 f5.6 2300grms 268mm long 19 elements /12 groups
Attachment 707369

Sony 200-600 f5-f6.3 2115grms 318mm long 24 elements /17 groups
Attachment 707370

Tamron G2 150-600 f5-f6.3 1990grms 258mm long 21 elements /13 groups
Attachment 707371

Canon 600 f4L IS III 3050grms 448mm long 17 elements /13 groups
Attachment 707372
That's a great post!

I'm pretty fed up with Nikon lagging a generation behind Sony/Canon in long tele weight. I could get a Canon 600mm f/4 IS II used for about $6k at 8.6 lb or a Nikon 600mm f/4e for maybe $10k used (if you can find one) at 8.4 lb. And the Nikon f/4G is maybe $5k used but 11.2 lb. Similar story for the 400/2.8.

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Old Tuesday 15th October 2019, 13:02   #330
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Z50 design considerations ....

An interview with some managerial level insiders provides some interesting revelations that the Z50 didn't include IBIS or a Vari-angle Touchscreen due to space and form factor reasons.
"I think users at this level donít expect to see IBIS in an enthusiast-level product, especially at this price point."
https://www.amateurphotographer.co.u...-factor-131940

Can't say that I agree with that last statement - that seems a serious underestimation ........

2 other important takeaways are that:
"our strategy hasnít changed in that weíre focusing closely on mid to high end product development."
and .....
"Q/: What are Nikonís plans for its DX-format DSLR range now the Z 50 has arrived?"
A/: Our strategy is to run both systems (DSLR & Mirrorless) alongside each other. There are advantages of each and there are still users who prefer using an optical viewfinder and having the longer battery life you get with a DSLR camera. A lot of people are moving to mirrorless for video functionality and the size of the product. Our strategy is to absolutely run both products alongside each other."


As far as any future DX Z mount lenses beyond those announced on the road map goes - it seems Nikon has learnt nothing from the previous decade of disappointing DX customers, and it seems if you still have those high expectations, you can pretty much go fly a kite !





Chosun
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Old Tuesday 15th October 2019, 13:33   #331
nikonmike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
An interview with some managerial level insiders provides some interesting revelations that the Z50 didn't include IBIS or a Vari-angle Touchscreen due to space and form factor reasons.
"I think users at this level donít expect to see IBIS in an enthusiast-level product, especially at this price point."
https://www.amateurphotographer.co.u...-factor-131940

Can't say that I agree with that last statement - that seems a serious underestimation ........

2 other important takeaways are that:
"our strategy hasnít changed in that weíre focusing closely on mid to high end product development."
and .....
"Q/: What are Nikonís plans for its DX-format DSLR range now the Z 50 has arrived?"
A/: Our strategy is to run both systems (DSLR & Mirrorless) alongside each other. There are advantages of each and there are still users who prefer using an optical viewfinder and having the longer battery life you get with a DSLR camera. A lot of people are moving to mirrorless for video functionality and the size of the product. Our strategy is to absolutely run both products alongside each other."


As far as any future DX Z mount lenses beyond those announced on the road map goes - it seems Nikon has learnt nothing from the previous decade of disappointing DX customers, and it seems if you still have those high expectations, you can pretty much go fly a kite !





Chosun
After all the years i have been a Nikon user i know to allow for there devious/childish marketing strategies, the Z 50 was designed to push most Nikon wannabes up a model or two.
The lenses launched will cover me and if not i will use Sigma, Nikons loss.
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