RSPB allows "wildfowling" (1 Viewer)

Poecile said:

Yeah, but they're also flushed every time a sparrowhawk or a peregrine flies over, or a plane, or dog-walker, or a boat goes past, so they can clearly cope with being flushed now and again. I don't think anyone's ever proven that any bird has ever died form being flushed and prevented from feeding.

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Like you I'm not aware of any proof of birds being killed by repeated flushing. If an area was repeatedly disturbed I guess the birds would leave, rather than be harassed to death.

However there was an article published about 15-20 years ago which showed that Turnstones wintering close to an English coastal resort (Margate?) were not in optimum condition when they began their spring migration. The cause of that was repeated disturbance by people (especially dog walkers).

Ian Peters said:

I don't but the post still tends to belittle a great deal of the points I made in post #100. It is irritating because I know full well that Poecile knew what I was referring to and a tiny technicality adds nothing to the general thread. I don't eat game and I do not shoot but neither do I oppose it whereas, Poecile claims to eat game and (for all I know) possibly, shoots but also validly points out the possibility of shooting protected species. That this happens, I have no doubt but it is a heck of a leap of faith to posit that this is causing species declines. I humbly defer should someone prove to me that this is different but I object to sweeping statements based on a few examples because this is deliberately muddying the water.

Bill Oddie is not my favourite person in the world but then again, I do not know him. On one hand, he has become an ambassador for wildlife but on the other hand, he is not held down by the need to be wholly accurate from a data perspective. There is one point of irony here, Poecile accused Bill of speaking rubbish on another thread but here, Bill is being defended by the accuser.* o

Ian

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I would politely suggest that you're reading the posts in a predisposed manner, looking for offence, and perhaps object to being corrected rather than the correction itself. There is nothing arsey about the posts, they're addressing points of fact, that is all. I'm sorry if you don't like your statements questioned, but sometimes they are factually wrong or unsubstantiated. So no, I don't "know what you mean". It is not a technicality that Edward VII regularly used to shoot up to 1000 pheasants a day at Sandringham (and 30,000 a year), and he massively popularised such activities. It has been going on for at least a century, and Guy Ritchie didn't invent it even though he has recently popularised the current increase, so to claim it is "recent" is misleading, and I didn't understand why you did so so I clarified. That's all. It is not a personal insult to disagree.

Have a look here, scroll past the pictures illustrating the fact, to the game log of the Marquis of Ripon, and note the annual shooting totals, then see the DAILY shooting totals. These are all in the thousands. http://shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=1041899&sid=8d6616ec03267ec2a8b58098a229783d

Can you also point out where I have "defended" Bill Oddie? Or where I have linked shooting a protected species to species decline? Certainly one can link persecution to species declines (Hen Harriers? Buzzards in England during C20? where's the English Golden Eagles?), but I didn't link it to shooting in any way.

It is possible to shoot, eat game AND not support the shooting of protected species, you know! The majority do, I'd wager.

rozinante said:

Not sure self policing is such a good idea:-

http://www.league.org.uk/uploads/documents/doc_499.pdf

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Completely unbiased report there then

Deborah - Generally Wildfowlers are restricted to the amount of time they can spend on the foreshore. Also as I've said earlier - wildfowling isnt like pheasant shooting. Wildfowlers do not go and blast 100's cartridges. And yes, the secretary of state can declare a cease to shooting (thats all shooting as far as I know)in hard weather conditions, not sure exactly what the conditions are that lead to that declaration.

Also with regard to a post earlier by Ian - To my knowledge Pheasant and other game birds are not subject to the requirements of the General licence.

Craig H said:

Completely unbiased report there then

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Yes it is always a concern getting info from only one side of a story.

Mind you, who else would finance and do the work on this one. I did look for a blood sports industry angle on this but could not unfortunatly find anything about intensive rearing methods.

Perhaps you could help out here?

Craig H said:

Also with regard to a post earlier by Ian - To my knowledge Pheasant and other game birds are not subject to the requirements of the General licence.

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No, that's right. Pheasant shooting is arguably more regulated than eg pigeon shooting, as you need a shotgun certificate to shoot pheasants, whereas you can have a pop at pigeons etc with any old airgun bought without a licence or check, as long as you have permission to be on the land.

rozinante said:

Yes it is always a concern getting info from only one side of a story.

Mind you, who else would finance and do the work on this one. I did look for a blood sports industry angle on this but could not unfortunatly find anything about intensive rearing methods.

Perhaps you could help out here?

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this is more neutral on the issue of husbandry:

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/content/abstract/116/23/610

and here's a meeting of minds:

https://secure.wsa.u-net.com/www.animalaid.org.uk/press/0501basc.htm

anyone who buys quail though, thinking it's wild game, deserves all they get!

And yes, the secretary of state can declare a cease to shooting (thats all shooting as far as I know)in hard weather conditions, not sure exactly what the conditions are that lead to that declaration.

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Under current policy, the order is only made when there is pretty vicious freeze-up by modern UK standards- 15 continuous days of freezing weather. It is made under section 2(6) of the Wildlife and C Act.

wildfowlers are helping out in ireland too http://www.friendsoftheirishenviron...index.php?do=paperstoday&action=view&id=11133

Craig H said:

Deborah - Generally Wildfowlers are restricted to the amount of time they can spend on the foreshore. Also as I've said earlier - wildfowling isnt like pheasant shooting. Wildfowlers do not go and blast 100's cartridges.

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Indeed, I've been out birding not far from wildfowlers and often there's not a shot fired for ages.

Poecile said:

this is more neutral on the issue of husbandry:

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/content/abstract/116/23/610

and here's a meeting of minds:

https://secure.wsa.u-net.com/www.animalaid.org.uk/press/0501basc.htm

anyone who buys quail though, thinking it's wild game, deserves all they get!

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The vets paper of 1985... hardly contemporary.

The apparent meeting of minds cited in the Animal Aid press release of January 05 did little to improve matters either. The British Association for Shooting and Conservation condemnation of the practices obviously not having any positive effect.

It would be interesting to read a recent responce of the blood sport lobby to this investigation though. Perhaps they feel so secure in their position that they don't feel the need to respond.

rozinante said:

The vets paper of 1985... hardly contemporary.

The apparent meeting of minds cited in the Animal Aid press release of January 05 did little to improve matters either. The British Association for Shooting and Conservation condemnation of the practices obviously not having any positive effect.

It would be interesting to read a recent responce of the blood sport lobby to this investigation though. Perhaps they feel so secure in their position that they don't feel the need to respond.

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Oooh, you are demanding (new one for the tagline )! How about this? http://www.gct.org.uk/pheasantconservation/releasepens.html

I do agree with you, it is not really acceptable, and I think the 'lobby' wishes it wasn't happening as it clearly doesn't look good. But these breeders are businesses, not necessarily part of the lobby, and as long as the practices are legal then there isn't much that anyone can do. Same with the chicken situation, and it is probably goign to take chicken welfare to improve before phesant does. But pheasants are sold at face value and called game, like guinea fowl, so who's fault is it that the public doesn't know/care about the differenc ebwteen game and wild, in the same way they don't know/care about 'farm fresh' and organic, and what all those labels actually mean?

I've forgotton what the point was now! is it the rearing, the shooting or the selling as 'game' that is the issue?

an interesting thread and some good points being raised.

For me it's not about sentimentality but more good practice and sustainability - combined with adhering to the law of course. As I've said, I wouldn't choose to shoot anything for fun but acknowledge that others will and do. If someone can enlighten me to what drives this desire, then my mind remains open.

In Britain for instance, I can live with the shooting for the table of Pheasant and RLPartridge but cannot reconcile any sound reason for wanting to shoot Snipe or Woodcock for instance. Any responsible sportsman who is in sync with his environment will recognise the pressures that such species face and will act accordingly.

Sadly, from my experience in recent years, I find those that are out of sync with nature and I can recall instances where I have challenged people who have shot species that are protected, one who boasted of the Curlew he bagged and what was I going to do about it ?

The point about prosecution of offenders is difficult to enforce in practice - even when I presented a Green Sandpiper, shot and in it's death throws to the RSPCA, they showed little interest of pressing charges. Similarly from my experience, calls to the local police have often resulted in my belief that I am wasting both their and my time.

For me, one positive thing that birders and birding organisations can do is to reinforce good practice. One thing that I often point out to locals I know to shoot, is the impact their activity has on all wildlife. Shooting of species that can in law be shot, often has the result of emptying the area of all other birds, some of which could be scarce, exhausted and/or trying to feed in harsh conditions.

Poecile said:

Oooh, you are demanding (new one for the tagline )! How about this? http://www.gct.org.uk/pheasantconservation/releasepens.html
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I've forgotton what the point was now! is it the rearing, the shooting or the selling as 'game' that is the issue?

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It's an improvement in that it recommends methods which at least offer some consideration of the bird’s welfare. It doesn't really seem to offer any hope of an improvement from those who don't have any interest in best practice though and they are the ones who need to change.

The point of my linking to the report btw was in reply to the impression that was being presented that game shooting was an ethical, sustainable and valid method of modern food production, the policing of which should be left to the participants. I think the report is a valid challenge to that claim although I accept that the abuses highlighted have less association with wildfowling (the original focus of the thread before it was expanded by the anti-animal rights activists) than other bloodsports.

Demanding? I think the contents of the report itself should demand answers from the official blood sports organisations. For them to leave it to individuals to respond speaks volumes for their concern and intent.

(Sorry no where near ludicrous enough for my tagline. You will have to do better than that.

I don't buy pheasants for the reasons you highlight - it's impossible to know if the birds are from a good or bad estate with good or bad practice. But be aware that not all shoots are like that (although I can't comment on whether the commercial breeders are). Many small shoots rear only a few hundreds birds and aim for 1-2 days shooting (bags are usually about 1/3 of those st down, due to wandering and predation or missed shots etc).

I tend to stick to wildfowl, pigeon or rabbit/hare, if I'm buying, as nobody can mess around with those too much.

Re Woodcock, Robin, as I mentioned on another thread most of the birds here in winter are from the huge broeal populations, so are unrelated to the problems the breeding birds have here. Similar with Snipe.

rozinante said:

Yes it is always a concern getting info from only one side of a story.

Mind you, who else would finance and do the work on this one. I did look for a blood sports industry angle on this but could not unfortunatly find anything about intensive rearing methods.

Perhaps you could help out here?

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Roziante - http://www.basc.org.uk/content/basc_calls_for_ban_on_bat

Theres other stuff on here as well if you search. The other links posted seem quite good also. Not being funny with my earlier post, but reffering to a league against cruel sports report on anything to do with game shooting is a bit like using a Liverpool FC report on how good MUFC are, if you get my meaning.