Taphrospilus
Well-known member
It might make sense to search État civil from Eysines (Gironde) for his real brith date (most probaly 1799 or early 1800).
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Abeillia abeillei (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Susan Manchester
- Start date
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Well found Laurent, you sure deliver! :t:
Thereby Grégoire Abeillé (1798-1848) it is!
And regarding his wife, commemorated in feliciae/feliciana ...
= Jeanne Françoise Elisa Félicie Abeillé née Gard
Quite a teamwork, guys!
Björn
PS. Less bees (abeille) to look for.
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Thereby Grégoire Abeillé (1798-1848) it is!
And regarding his wife, commemorated in feliciae/feliciana ...
Not (in my mind) as both were described in "Ornismya" ...
= Jeanne Françoise Elisa Félicie Abeillé née Gard
Quite a teamwork, guys!
Björn
PS. Less bees (abeille) to look for.
--
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Maybe a passing fancy ... or simply a wild-goose chase?
I wouldn´t be surprised if "Bernard Abeillé", Father of Dr Grégoire Abeillé (in practice in Bordeaux), is the one commemorated in the all un-explained eponym ...
bernardi as in:
● Collared Antshrike (Sakesphorus) Thamnophilus bernardi LESSON 1844 (here, right column):
Couldn´t it be a way for Lesson to clearly separate the two guys, Father and Son, Abeillé? Maybe Lesson choose bernandi (on a request by Mr Abeillé) versus (his own) abeillei. Just to avoid confusion ...
It could be worth trying to find the occupation of Bernard Abeillé. Could he possibly have been a Mariner? If so, it could, would, might explain how a local doctor in Bordeaux could assemble such a large collection of exotic birds...
But if it truly does commemorate him? Who knows? I haven't got a clue. This is just pure speculation, a simple guess. Nothing, absolutely nothing, more. It´s just an idea, for anyone keen on digging further into the "bees" ...
Björn
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I wouldn´t be surprised if "Bernard Abeillé", Father of Dr Grégoire Abeillé (in practice in Bordeaux), is the one commemorated in the all un-explained eponym ...
bernardi as in:
● Collared Antshrike (Sakesphorus) Thamnophilus bernardi LESSON 1844 (here, right column):
Today's HBW Alive Key explain this eponym as:
But are we sure the OD was telling us of a surname?
Couldn´t it be a way for Lesson to clearly separate the two guys, Father and Son, Abeillé? Maybe Lesson choose bernandi (on a request by Mr Abeillé) versus (his own) abeillei. Just to avoid confusion ...
It could be worth trying to find the occupation of Bernard Abeillé. Could he possibly have been a Mariner? If so, it could, would, might explain how a local doctor in Bordeaux could assemble such a large collection of exotic birds...
But if it truly does commemorate him? Who knows? I haven't got a clue. This is just pure speculation, a simple guess. Nothing, absolutely nothing, more. It´s just an idea, for anyone keen on digging further into the "bees" ...
Björn
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Good point, but do we know that Grégoire was the first-born Son?
And what says that the specimen was collected close to the description?
Björn
PS. Martin, your added first link, from 1833 (simultaneously posted, as I was writing the above) clearly tells us that Bernard is a surname! Thereby I think we can forget the Abeillé on this/his part. That is, of course, if he was the same guy (as in the OD, of 1844). Well, either way, I will leave him here, in the dusk.
Bernard ... un capitaine de la marine ... over and out!
PPS. But it was worth a try!
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And what says that the specimen was collected close to the description?
Björn
PS. Martin, your added first link, from 1833 (simultaneously posted, as I was writing the above) clearly tells us that Bernard is a surname! Thereby I think we can forget the Abeillé on this/his part. That is, of course, if he was the same guy (as in the OD, of 1844). Well, either way, I will leave him here, in the dusk.
Bernard ... un capitaine de la marine ... over and out!
PPS. But it was worth a try!
--
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Well, even if not related, with such a track record (Calcutta, Rio de Janeiro, Martinique, Jamaica, Singapore, Saigon ...), I assume Captain Bernard was a very usefull contact to Dr. Abeillé.
More than this, who he was? I haven't got a clue.
Björn (... off to work)
PS. I´m glad I didn´t toss in the Mother of Grégoire Abeillé as yet another possible candidatee (among all the other ladies named Marie) for the synonym "T. [Trochilus] Mariæ" a k a "C. [Colibri] de Marie". That would have stirred things up even worse! ...
--
More than this, who he was? I haven't got a clue.
Björn (... off to work)
PS. I´m glad I didn´t toss in the Mother of Grégoire Abeillé as yet another possible candidatee (among all the other ladies named Marie) for the synonym "T. [Trochilus] Mariæ" a k a "C. [Colibri] de Marie". That would have stirred things up even worse! ...
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l_raty
laurent raty
Not wanting to be nit-picky, but La Nouvelle France, in this first link, is the name of the ship, not that of its place of origin. A ship that is there said (under 'Arrivals)' to have reached Bombay (now Mumbai) from Bordeaux on 2 Jan, and then (under 'Departures') to have left Bombay for Allepee (now Alappuzha?) on 20 Jan.
'Bernard', as a name, may be a bit too common to be much confident that two mentions of a 'Capitaine Bernard' must refer to the same person, I think.
(Note that in the very same journal that reports (June 1833 issue) about a Capitaine Bernard leaving Bombay on 20 Jan on the ship La Nouvelle France [here], a Capitaine Bernard is also reported (July 1833 issue) to have left Calcutta (now Kolkata) for Havre de Grace (now Le Havre) on 22 Jan on the ship Irma [here]. To reach Calcutta from Bombay with a ship (sailing all the way round the point of S India) is > 3000 km, this was definitely not doable in two days. Thus, if these data are correct, we may have two 'Capitaine Bernard' on two different ships in this document alone.)
'Bernard', as a name, may be a bit too common to be much confident that two mentions of a 'Capitaine Bernard' must refer to the same person, I think.
(Note that in the very same journal that reports (June 1833 issue) about a Capitaine Bernard leaving Bombay on 20 Jan on the ship La Nouvelle France [here], a Capitaine Bernard is also reported (July 1833 issue) to have left Calcutta (now Kolkata) for Havre de Grace (now Le Havre) on 22 Jan on the ship Irma [here]. To reach Calcutta from Bombay with a ship (sailing all the way round the point of S India) is > 3000 km, this was definitely not doable in two days. Thus, if these data are correct, we may have two 'Capitaine Bernard' on two different ships in this document alone.)
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l_raty
laurent raty
Just to close the trail:
Bernard Abeillé died in Eysines on 14 Jan 1848 and, according to his death record ([here]; in the first box (Cote), enter: 4 E 7043/3 ; click Valider; open the file (under Accès); go to image 3/18), he was a former surgeon (ancien chirurgien).
Not at all a capitaine de la marine du commerce de Bordeaux, thus.
Bernard Abeillé died in Eysines on 14 Jan 1848 and, according to his death record ([here]; in the first box (Cote), enter: 4 E 7043/3 ; click Valider; open the file (under Accès); go to image 3/18), he was a former surgeon (ancien chirurgien).
Not at all a capitaine de la marine du commerce de Bordeaux, thus.
ElChivizcoyo
Active member
This is one of the hardest bird etymologies I researched!! Thank you all, this thread was very useful
I tried to find another information through searching about naturalist societies in Bordeaux by the date of description of the birds with the abeillei eponym without any result.
It also seems quite interesting that the majority of the birds related with the "Abeillei family" were described by Lesson
I tried to find another information through searching about naturalist societies in Bordeaux by the date of description of the birds with the abeillei eponym without any result.
It also seems quite interesting that the majority of the birds related with the "Abeillei family" were described by Lesson
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Indeed it looks like Lesson had access to the collection of Grégoire Abeillé.
Nice that you are back in this forum. Just a question. Any progress on Pipilo ocai or Goulds Oca's Hummingbird Amazilia ocai one of the hardest bird etymologies I researched.:smoke: No idea how to find birth and death dates in Mexico in a very turbulent time period.
Nice that you are back in this forum. Just a question. Any progress on Pipilo ocai or Goulds Oca's Hummingbird Amazilia ocai one of the hardest bird etymologies I researched.:smoke: No idea how to find birth and death dates in Mexico in a very turbulent time period.
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Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Alberto, welcome back ... the same goes for the eponym in the Rose-bellied Bunting Passerina rositae [a k a rositafink (in Swedish); i.e. Rosalía "Rosita" Sumichrast née Nivon (who died in 1891), Mexican wife of François Sumichrast], a lady that we earlier dealt with (from November 2016, until March 2017) in thread About the name of Passerina rositae (here).
With hope of not being tedious alt. nagging: Any progress on finding her birth?
Grateful for any reply (... in either thread).
Björn
With hope of not being tedious alt. nagging: Any progress on finding her birth?
Grateful for any reply (... in either thread).
Björn
ElChivizcoyo
Active member
Hello, I'm sad to say that I have no progress to find either Montes de Oca or Rosalía information For Montes de Oca biographical data I need to get access to the local church archives (that has proved to be complicated)
And for Rosalía I need to travel to the area in order to get first-hand information.
I hope that in next months I'll obtain more information about Rosalía, Montes de Oca remains as a mistery
For Montes de Oca biographical data I need to get access to the local church archives (that has proved to be complicated) And for Rosalía I need to travel to the area in order to get first-hand information.
I hope that in next months I'll obtain more information about Rosalía, Montes de Oca remains as a mistery
Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Martin, I think there is no question any longer regarding the surname of "Capitaine Bernard".
Laurent made it pretty clear, back in March 2018.
Thus, there's no reason to re-quote my old blue question (alt. suspicion/speculation).
It's obsolete since long, already refuted and answered (beyond doubt).
Björn
PS. "OD by the way" ... ?
See the same old quote.
Laurent made it pretty clear, back in March 2018.
Thus, there's no reason to re-quote my old blue question (alt. suspicion/speculation).
It's obsolete since long, already refuted and answered (beyond doubt).
Björn
PS. "OD by the way" ... ?
See the same old quote.
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I am not so sure this is resolved at all - the French Brig of war Le Pylade that had Lessons brother Adolphe aboard was commanded by Capitaine Felix Bernard and cruised the eastern coast of South America in 1839 and 1840 where Collared Antshrike specimens could easily be obtained. They also visited Buenos Aires where such specimens could no doubt be bought. Felix Bernard may have become "capitaine de la marine du commerce de Bordeaux" after his Pacific adventures. P
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Taphrospilus
Well-known member
Björn Bergenholtz
(former alias "Calalp")
Paul, I sure didn't mean that this case is, or even was; "resolved at all", not in full. Not at all. Not the least.
I just wanted to point out that there seems to be little doubt that his surname was Bernard. Nothing else. That was the single part that Laurent made clear, back in 2018.
The rest of it is still waiting to be resolved.
And to me, it looks like you're all, ... well on your way.
Good luck pin-pointing Captain Bernard.
/B
PS. Why Martin re-quoted that old, refuted blue phrase of mine, is beyond my understanding.
