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Old Monday 4th June 2007, 22:13   #51
Ben M
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Dickinson View Post
Looks to me like the Contents box is placed before the first heading, checked a few locations.
Where there are reviews, are we going to have a set lay out for them. I've noticed in a few instances that the review has included a 'pros' and 'cons' section. Maybe encourage people to give theirs by including those as second level titles? vis Blacktoft Sands http://www.birdforum.net/opus/Blackt..._%28England%29

I've played about with the page since first posting this Ben, added a picture etc, what do you think.
Generally looks good as it is at the time of my post. I really like balancing the contents with a photo (although the photo isn't showing up yet for me... I guess it's a test idea?).

I've seen on some sites that pros and cons as level 3 headings makes the Reviews section really dominate the contents, so definetly agree about having them as not proper headings (so they don't appear). In fact, when there are more than 3-4 reviews the same thing starts to occur with just the review title (i.e. "Ben M's review"), so we might even think of making these not proper headings... otherwise we should probably make Reviews the very last section, so a entry with 10 or so reviews doesn't break up the important titles in the contents. Will anyone actually want to click on a specific reviewer's review in the contents? Probably not. Much better to have a structured contents that is potentially identical for every site.

Another minor point I notice in the entry is that the level 1 headings are bolded by adding ''' around them. This is generally regarded as bad practice (whether done originally by the system or by someone editing). Heading styles should only be changed in their central definition (i.e. the stylesheet, if you're familiar with that term).

I think this is a good start, which is just what we needed to really get things moving

I'll do a little work on it now... which can always be rolled back if I muck it up
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Old Monday 4th June 2007, 22:27   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njlarsen View Post
I like the more structured version included in this thread better than the version with fewer headings given as a link to Blacktoft Sands. More headings of course means that the author should have some disciplin to awoid repetitions.
Yes, I think we are all agreed on that, but it will require some thorough work on the current location articles. Also, I think this was just a starting point to realize the ideas we've been discussing, and see how they look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by njlarsen View Post
I think the list of birds given in small print with no spaces or structure is booring. Could it be possible to have a template that reformats the output into columns with check-boxes for production of a checklist? (I know this is a tall order, but by asking the worst I can get is a "No"). The proper heading for this section should either be "complete list of birds" or "Check-list". "Birds" does not work for me when the previous section also has a lot of bird-specific info.
Good comment, and funny you should mention the checklist... I was considering writing a little bit of software that parses the birdlist code into a checklist allowing you to tick/untick species and generate the updated code for an article, when changes are required. (Yes, it's overkill, but that's me! )

Quote:
Originally Posted by njlarsen View Post
The reviews in the linked to example seems to take up a lot of space, to give information that really should be included already above.
Yes, I agree. Previously, I mentioned summarising them or removing them altogether. They're really just a legacy of the old system, and - in my opinion - contravene the ethos of Opus. I would feel bad deleting them though!
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Old Monday 4th June 2007, 22:30   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben
Another minor point I notice in the entry is that the level 1 headings are bolded by adding ''' around them. This is generally regarded as bad practice (whether done originally by the system or by someone editing). Heading styles should only be changed in their central definition (i.e. the stylesheet, if you're familiar with that term).
Sorry that was me mucking about with it. Wondered if it would look better with the headings Bold. (sshhh didn't know it was bad practise <goes away and hides>)

I'm with you on the Reviews.

I wonder why the photo isn't showing for you, though Ben. It was for me and Keith

D
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Old Monday 4th June 2007, 22:34   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delia todd View Post
Sorry that was me mucking about with it. Wondered if it would look better with the headings Bold. (sshhh didn't know it was bad practise <goes away and hides>)

I'm with you on the Reviews.

I wonder why the photo isn't showing for you, though Ben. It was for me and Keith

D
Don't worry about the headings... only a pedant like me would know

Photo shows when I turn down my paranoid security settings: problem solved
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Old Monday 4th June 2007, 23:38   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njlarsen
I like the more structured version included in this thread better than the version with fewer headings given as a link to Blacktoft Sands. More headings of course means that the author should have some disciplin to awoid repetitions.
I've had another play with it and put some more headings in.

What thoughts now?

http://www.birdforum.net/opus/Blackt...eserve_England

D
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Old Monday 4th June 2007, 23:42   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delia todd View Post
I've had another play with it and put some more headings in.

What thoughts now?

http://www.birdforum.net/opus/Blackt...eserve_England

D
I've been editing at the same time!
I'll merge my updates with your latest ones... hang on
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 00:07   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben M View Post
I'll merge my updates with your latest ones... hang on
Done... please comment on anything you're* not keen on.
I liked your idea of putting Other Wildlife directly after the Birds section (I had it in Site Info, but wasn't happy with it). I preferred the bird list under the Birds section.

The style for reviews is a bit fiddly to set-up, but I think it looks reasonable and the separate reviews don't appear in the contents I'm not sure about the horizontal lines to separate each one though.

I chose the headings based on previous discussion and also where I think the typeof information changes... please suggest better headings if you* want

* I mean anyone reading this
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 00:27   #58
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To me that looks fine Ben - well done.

Only comment is that it's lost the link to the 'Yorkshire' page by changing it to 'RSPB'

D
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 00:45   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delia todd View Post
Only comment is that it's lost the link to the 'Yorkshire' page by changing it to 'RSPB'
I didn't see a Yorkshire category in the one I edited... but I've now changed the RSPB one into Yorkshire and moved it to the front. I think it needs adjusting further to find the Yorkshire page though.

I added one for RSPB as I was actually expecting categories to behave differently... not like direct links, but like tagging in blogs: clicking on a category/tag of RSPB will automatically list all other entries with the category/tag of RSPB. So some of my previous thoughts concerning categories are therefore wrong.

Hopefully others will give their views on the current structure/style too
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 01:12   #60
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For Categories, I think this http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=86206 is all we have for info so far. Notice my question at the end, I still think I have a lot to learn!

It looks like the lines across appear after each time you go to a level 1 heading after having stayed with level 2 for a while.

I like the way things look right now, there is enough structure to make it usable, without going overboard.

There is a acronym under external links for RSPB, I assume that is a link that should be added.

cheers
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 01:18   #61
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Quote:
I didn't see a Yorkshire category in the one I edited
Forget I said that bit will you please

I think it looks great - but we'll see what others have to say.

The only other issue is Neils comment on the 'Check List'. It would look better I agree in, say, 3 columns but...

D
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 09:29   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neils
There is a acronym under external links for RSPB, I assume that is a link that should be added.
I just added RSPB in to show what sort of thing would go in there.

We haven't got 'Nearby sites' positioned yet?

D
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 11:24   #63
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An update to the categories thing...

I've managed to get the type of behaviour I was aiming for:

Go to the Blacktoft Sands entry
Clicking the Yorkshire category at the bottom will go to the category page for Yorkshire which lists all entries with Yorkshire as a category (just two sites at the mo').
The content of this Yorkshire category page can be edited, so I put a link to the main Yorkshire article here. It doesn't seem possible to add categories to category pages though, so I can't add England as a category to the Yorkshire category page (only to the main Yorkshire article).

I've added a "List of Yorkshire sites" link to the main Yorkshire article using:
[[:Category:Yorkshire|List of Yorkshire Sites]]
(note the initial colon)
This will make it easier to list sites within an area from the main article for that area (i.e. Yorkshire sites from the Yorkshire entry).
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 12:10   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delia todd View Post
I just added RSPB in to show what sort of thing would go in there.

We haven't got 'Nearby sites' positioned yet?

D
Sorted RSPB link.

How do we define nearby and sites?
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 12:11   #65
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Well done Ben

I'm not sure what you've done or how and am still trying to work it out!

Rather confused as to why there's four sites listed on one page and only two on the other but no doubt I'll get there in the end

D
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 12:20   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben M View Post
Sorted RSPB link.
Well done that looks better

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben
How do we define nearby and sites?
I'm not sure we need to 'define' them really. It would depend on the circumstances or the article I'd think.

For instance an RSPB reserve may be not far from a WWT one - Pulborough Brooks RSPB and Arundel WWT and both not far from Pagham Harbour.

I'd leave this to whoever is doing the article??

D
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 12:35   #67
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Well done Ben

I'm not sure what you've done or how and am still trying to work it out!

Rather confused as to why there's four sites listed on one page and only two on the other but no doubt I'll get there in the end

D
In the main Yorkshire article the sites are listed directly in the article... whereas the category listing is all sites with "Yorkshire" as a category (i.e. the list is generated automatically). To add sites to the automatic list then just edit them and add "Yorkshire" as a category.

I guess this makes listing the sites manually in the main article redundant. However, they could be mentioned and linked in the discussion text (e.g. "Yorkshire is renowned for its breeding population of X, which are almost entirely located at [[Blacktoft Sands]].").
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 18:50   #68
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Just looking at what's been done since yesterday...I think the page is starting to look good.
I too like the idea of a printable checklist but don't know how to put one in.

Where is the link to google maps going to go?
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 18:55   #69
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Answering my own question....maybe in the external links section?
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 23:17   #70
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Quote:
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Where is the link to google maps going to go?
Probably depends on whether it's embedded into the page (i.e appears like an image would) or not. If not then external links seems like the best place.

With regards to nearby sites... I think this is best left to the reader to decide from a (Google?) map. What I was alluding to earlier is that "nearby" and "site" are very subjective. I might consider a small wood within walking distance a nearby site, but not consider a large reserve which is 30-minutes away by car. Someone else might consider the opposite.
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Old Tuesday 5th June 2007, 23:46   #71
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Maybe have a radius of a set mileage from the site for the nearby stuff....10 miles at most? or less?
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Old Wednesday 6th June 2007, 00:08   #72
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Sorry... I'm rather at odds with you two on this

It surely depends on the circumstances and terrain as to where is 'nearby'

Loch of the Lowes to Killiecrankie is more than 20 miles

Montrose to Fowleshaugh is too

But they are 'near' each other in Scottish miles

Ten miles up here and you wouldn't get anything else.

I can't see why we're getting bogged down with the 'nitty-gritty' of this - why not leave it to the author of the article. They only need to provide a link if it's already on Opus.

D
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Old Wednesday 6th June 2007, 00:22   #73
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Quote:
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... why not leave it to the author of the article. ...
Out of curiosity, are you envisioning that articles will be mainly written by one author, or by contributions from several authors?

Of course, entries are initially created by one author, but my thoughts were towards the latter - that Opus entries are collaboratively authored.

What does everyone else think?
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Old Wednesday 6th June 2007, 00:27   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben M View Post
Out of curiosity, are you envisioning that articles will be mainly written by one author, or by contributions from several authors?

Of course, entries are initially created by one author, but my thoughts were towards the latter - that Opus entries are collaboratively authored.

What does everyone else think?
er.. well my thinking was if anyone was going to add 'nearby sites' they'd probably know the area and what was feasible - wouldn't they?

Well at least I wouldn't attempt to do it for an area I didn't know.

D
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Old Wednesday 6th June 2007, 00:37   #75
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er.. well my thinking was if anyone was going to add 'nearby sites' they'd probably know the area and what was feasible - wouldn't they?

Well at least I wouldn't attempt to do it for an area I didn't know.

D
Well I was meaning more generally in my last post...

My problem with "Nearby Sites" maybe just something personal to me... suppose I want to visit a site and I see on its Opus entry that there are a few "nearby sites"... I think "great, I can visit them all in a day". but I arrive there to find that I can't visit them all in a day on foot.

Maybe list the nearest sites of interest along with the approximate walking and driving distance?
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