Harrier id, Norfolk, UK (1 Viewer)

Solihull Villan · May 13, 2018

Hi
Saw this ringtail Harrier at Burnham Overy Dunes on 08/05/18. Thinking maybe Montagus or even Pallid? Appreciate quality of pic maybe insufficient for a definite id but would appreciate any feedback. Thanks

Simon Wates · May 13, 2018

Only an impression but maybe a little heavy/broad armed for Montagu's. Certainly that or a Pallid as you say. Great bird for the location!

rosbifs · May 13, 2018

Lot of white around eye would point to Monties. Time to retreat to my books...

skbirder · May 13, 2018

For sure a Montagu's or Pallid, but hard from the photo to be 100% of which. Slim jizz, slender-looking tail, extensive white above eye, weak collar and what looks to be a dark trailing edge to the hand would point towards Montagu's. Any more photos?

tconzemi · May 13, 2018

skbirder said:
For sure a Montagu's or Pallid, but hard from the photo to be 100% of which. Slim jizz, slender-looking tail, extensive white above eye, weak collar and what looks to be a dark trailing edge to the hand would point towards Montagu's. Any more photos?

to add a few pro Pallid fearures: still visible collar in a blurred pic bordered by extreme boa and lot of dark below white face marking, dark (looking) secondaries...
more pics needed indeed

Solihull Villan · May 13, 2018

Thanks for the replies. Unfortuntely, no other pics, just the single shot using bridge camera.

Simon Wates · May 13, 2018

Here's a brighter, cropped and enlarged version of the OP, don't know if it can be trusted but underwing looks quite good for a Pallid?

Andy Adcock · May 13, 2018

Simon Wates said:
Only an impression but maybe a little heavy/broad armed for Montagu's. Certainly that or a Pallid as you say. Great bird for the location!

I'm not up to date these days as I don't twitch anymore but Mont'ys has a regular breeding history in Norfolk, Pallid most definitely hasn't!

A

Simon Wates · May 13, 2018

With the coastal location, time of year and the increase in Pallids in the west of Europe in recent years Pallid isn't that less likely than Monty's. I thought the breeding pop was inland...? Anyway, I'm not sayng it is a Pallid though

Andy Adcock · May 13, 2018

Simon Wates said:
With the coastal location, time of year and the increase in Pallids in the west of Europe in recent years Pallid isn't that less likely than Monty's. I thought the breeding pop was inland...? Anyway, I'm not sayng it is a Pallid though

I think Pallid is still MUCH rarer than Monty's in the UK, probably 3-5 records per year?

A

Simon Wates · May 13, 2018

If you want to base the ID on probability that's fine. What I meant to say was that Pallid shouldn't be ruled out, especially because of coastal location, time of year and the recent exponencial increase of Pallids. True, its much rarer than Monty's in the UK, you are right, though Monty's aren't exactly common - they are pretty scarce indeed; 5-10 pairs?

Andy Adcock · May 13, 2018

Simon Wates said:
If you want to base the ID on probability that's fine. What I meant to say was that Pallid shouldn't be ruled out, especially because of coastal location, time of year and the recent exponencial increase of Pallids. True, its much rarer than Monty's in the UK, you are right, though Monty's aren't exactly common - they are pretty scarce indeed; 5-10 pairs?

Agree

A

Tib78 · May 13, 2018

2cy Montagu’s all right.

Solihull Villan · May 14, 2018

Thanks for the input everyone

Hotspur · May 14, 2018

andyadcock said:
I think Pallid is still MUCH rarer than Monty's in the UK, probably 3-5 records per year?

A

Certainly more than that - 15 reports in 2017, 31 in 2016. I guess a good few don’t make the grade but certainly regular enough to consider with each Monty’s type. 2 held territory last year as well.

Andy Adcock · May 14, 2018

Hotspur said:
Certainly more than that - 15 reports in 2017, 31 in 2016. I guess a good few don’t make the grade but certainly regular enough to consider with each Monty’s type. 2 held territory last year as well.

Many of these will be the same birds I'm sure and 'reports' are not the same as confirmed.

Here in Russia, I don't see them annually despite their recent increase in Finland.

Struggling to find figures but 1950-2015 there had been 85 records, that's 1.3 birds per year over the period.

A

Simon Wates · May 14, 2018

andyadcock said:
Many of these will be the same birds I'm sure and 'reports' are not the same as confirmed.

Here in Russia, I don't see them annually despite their recent increase in Finland.

Struggling to find figures but 1950-2015 there had been 85 records, that's 1.3 birds per year over the period.

A

Try the later years, not fair to include 50's-70's when ringtail ID was a nightmare

Pallid's trend in recent years has been a westward spread (massive increase in records in Spain - and for that matter, Portugal) so maybe why there's no increase in Russia, maybe even a decline (?).

Anyway - nice that the OP's photo now has an ID -- saves the local Norfolk folk kickin' themselves!

Mark Lew1s · May 14, 2018

2016 BBRC WIP file shows at least 17 accepted Pallids in the UK that year (with 1 still in circulation, and not counting any accepted as 'same' as I wasn't sure what to do with them).

1.3 per year over 1950 - 2015 does not reflect the big upturn in records over the last ten years or so. What used to be a mega is now an expected rarity, and if it carried on with this trend will not be a BB for too much longer.

Simon Wates · May 14, 2018

It would be interesting to know what percentage were adults; I mean if its higher than expected (due to the bias of vagrant juvs) it could be indicative of extending breeding range further. Here in Portugal its been mainly juvs. but there have also been a some 2nd cal and adult birds in the last 5 years more or less.

GWB77 · May 14, 2018

Simon Wates said:
Pallid's trend in recent years has been a westward spread (massive increase in records in Spain - and for that matter, Portugal) so maybe why there's no increase in Russia, maybe even a decline (?).

Indeed, hasn't one theory behind the increasing Scandinavian population been that birds are moving out of previous strongholds (like Steppe habitat in Russia), and moving into N & NW Europe?

Harrier id, Norfolk, UK (1 Viewer)

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