Dogs.Should they be allowed on nature reserves? (1 Viewer)

Nutcracker said:

The difference is density - for every wolf at natural population density (about 5 wolves per 100 sq. km from one study I found), there's probably about a thousand to ten thousand dogs, at least in urban / suburban areas. So a bird that might get scared off by a wolf once every few months, is instead having to put up with dozens of scares every day. Some birds (e.g. Jackdaws) get used to it - but others, most typically the birds that birders like to see (e.g. Green Sandpipers), don't.

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Of course. Most every problem comes down to what are the relative concentrations.
If there were 100 times more birds or 1/100 the number of cats and dogs then their impact would be much less of an issue.

I love dogs but they are not part of any ecosystem. John's analogizing dogs to foxes, wolves, coyotes, jackals and so on is false IMO. Dogs are a fabrication and therefore an extension of man. Same for cats.

Nutcracker said:

The difference is density - for every wolf at natural population density (about 5 wolves per 100 sq. km from one study I found), there's probably about a thousand to ten thousand dogs, at least in urban / suburban areas. So a bird that might get scared off by a wolf once every few months, is instead having to put up with dozens of scares every day. Some birds (e.g. Jackdaws) get used to it - but others, most typically the birds that birders like to see (e.g. Green Sandpipers), don't.

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Yep, that's why I mentioned jackals as well (Coyote the equivalent in North America). I didn't mention various felids, mustelids, raptors, ambush-type snakes etc.

A state of nervous tension in relation to predators of all types is a constant for birds of various sizes. And you underestimate Wolves' effects in some ways: they are perfectly capable of harvesting eggs from ground nesting birds and will be much less bothered than e.g. foxes by any mobbing: a Snow Goose, for instance, will not be facing off with a Wolf as it might with an Arctic Fox. It will have to abandon or be certainly killed. Most domestic dogs are far too daft and their instincts far too damaged to effectively undertake similar actions.

In urban areas the density of dogs is immense but it quickly drops outside towns. And there are always a lot more fox-sized terriers etc than there are sub-Wolf-sized Rotties and Shepherds.

All that said, I still entirely endorse the exclusion of dogs from the vast majority of nature reserves - for some it just isn't possible. I also agree that even a dog on a lead is considered by birds more of a threat than a human alone: I could never convince my mother of that but I observed the different behaviours when her well-behaved and well-controlled dogs were with her out birding compared to when the dog wasn't there.

But you should be aware that there are ladies out there who consider male humans more of a threat, and feel able to go birding because faithful Rex is with them... how much of the territory we confident hairy blokes patrol do you wish to deny them?

John

Sangahyando: thanks for your retorts but they are like just your opinion.....just like mine.

As for Cats - it’s a related problem but much worse, sorry if you are a Cat person.

As for ‘flaming’ - get a grip ffs - there’s precious little light-heartedness and take a chill pill.

Laurie:t:

As for the RSPB: i will give you an example...

For many years, about a decade, i used to visit a large sand and gravel extraction pit about 30 miles away. I visited during April and May and again Sept thru October. This was obviously timed for migration. Due to the activities and scouring effect there was little in the way of breeding birds on the ever-changing wet bits. There were however LRP’s. I used to mark these with a stick and report them c/w a rough ‘Treasure Island’ type map to the quarry supervisor.

When this operation ceased, about 5 years ago, the RSPB bought it and with a lot of donated monies including the National Lottery iirc and established a huge reserve with Minsmere-type flashes. Access was made available, i and some others already had access, and paths, car park, electric fences, screens and a Normandy bunker type hide was erected.

Of course along came the No Dogs signs. Dogs are allowed but not beyond the areas where non-birders are likely to go. Lots of non-birders do access the scrapes and flashes area as the paths are very good. This has led to pushchairs and litter, sunbathing bikini-clad teenagers, overnight sleeping c/w alcohol and spliffs and a hide notebook full of puerile rubbish:C

But no Dogs.
Or birders with a Dog on a lead that used the place before the RSPB came to Town.....
Adjacent to the restricted Dog access wetlands at right angles is a well-beaten track that comes down from the nearby canal which is popular with passing boats particularly in the Summer. As everybody knows - narrowboats and Dogs go together! This ensures plenty of ppl stretching their legs and visiting this area of the reserve.....many with their dog(s). My observations reveal that most are never on a lead and i rarely, if ever, have seen a problem because boat owners (and i used to be one) are responsible people.

I used to enjoy taking my Dog to this area and there was never a problem. The RSPB have a major problem that is much worse than a Dog or Dogs. The Reserve is a designated flood overflow for the River Tame and the RSPB have been told that they cannot block excess water from entering the flood plain. There is plenty of meadow land that they could use to alleviate imo but nothing thus far. Increased Summer rains has now meant the Reserve has flooded during the breeding season 3 out of the last 5 years - indeed there are now flood mark indicators etched in the hide much like you see in quaint riverside pubs that are inundated with waterborne detritus and associated sewage regularly. This area ws bought as a sanctuary and the sight of hundreds of dead Gull chicks, plus waders, is now a frequently depressing one:C

But hey - no Dogs. I have decided i will revert to my MO of years ago and will now be taking my Dog to the Reserve as if i was a responsible boat owner:t: Much like i did in the days before the RSPB ‘managed’ the place:-O and birds actually bred there...

I will be accused of arrogance and selfishness but i judge my action to be the cause of zero problems and woe betide anybody who decides to lecture me.

Good birding -

Laurie:t:

John Cantelo said:

I believe that research has shown that human + dog-on-lead causes more disturbance to birds than a human alone and that human + dog-not-on-lead causes significantly more disturbance than either (and this rises further when it involves several dogs). Since nature reserves cover a tiny % of the land in the UK then making them a dog-free zone would still leave ample space for people to walk their pets elsewhere.

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You are correct, and there is now a lot of structured observational evidence from shorebird surveys to support this.

A local private holiday home site owner opened a nature reserve next to his property
Like most of these holiday establishments its very popular with dog owners.
He's erected a huge sign at the entrance banning dogs. So far so good every time I've been- no dogs seen.
The reserve has only been going two years and breeding birds include Lapwing and Little Grebe plus lots of birds taking up the 50 nest boxes on site.
It attracts huge numbers of Teal in winter plus, Wigeon, Gadwall, Grey Heron, Shoveller, Tufted Duck, Marsh Harrier, Barn and Tawny Owl and so on.

It s important to bear in mind that these signs, like most ‘homemade’ signage in an increasingly cluttered UK, are merely polite requests and can be ignored if somebody so wishes as they carry no weight in a court of law.....

Even the much-vaunted ‘Trespassers will be Proscuted’:-O
First of all you have to prove wilful trespass and then damage to a crop or a product and even then the person or people concerned has to show intent.

Two examples:
I was down at RAF Fairford during the Kosovo campaign to look at the B52’s and B1’s. A group of Peaceniks cut through the perimeter fence and ran over to the parked up Bombers to drape flowers n banners. The security quickly kicked in and they were bundled, along with their dogs n kids back through the wire and effed off. No arrests etc it simply was not worth the hassle. When i next went down there was razor wire around the whole 12 mile perimeter with smiling and very affable..........Ghurkas - ‘nuff said.

The 2nd is wilful damage of GM crops with little or no enforcement that i read.

This sort of signage relies on common sense and goodwill and no amount of ‘get orff moyy laaand’ is the stuff of dreams.

Re: shorebirds. I agree but there is little you can do. On the very rare visits i make to our coastline i never walk near the edge with my Dog but there again i am a birder. The more insidious threats to coastlines and shorebirds is development, pollution and rising sea levels which if predicted means no shoreline or inter-tidal zone for anything or anybody.

Once again the Dog threat is imo overstated.

Good birding -

Laurie:t: