turneri - The mystery Mr. Turner and Priority questions (1 Viewer)

Taphrospilus · Jul 24, 2015

Here we can find Trochilus turnerii. The dedication is not really clear as mentioned in HBW Alive but it might be for Dawson Turner (at least the only british naturalist with this name I found at that time in Britain).

Apart from that is written in HBW Alive:

Dédiée à M. Turner, naturaliste anglais” (Bourcier 1846) (syn. Leucippus chionogaster hypoleucus).

This led to the question why Goulds publication of the same year have priority over Bourcier? If we look at Conspectus generum avium Bonaparte gave priority to Bourcier (but might be wrong).

I am even more confused as Gould wrote:

Remarks. - Nearly allied to T. leucogaster, Tschudi, and not far removed from T. albirostris, Auct.

OK I understood T. leucogaster was occupied by Amazilia leucogaster (Gmelin, JF, 1788) therefore Amazilia chionogaster (von Tschudi, 1846). This is mentioned by Tschudi here. But how do we know in the subspecies who was first Gould's Amazilia chionogaster hypoleuca (Gould, 1846) or Bourcier's Amazilia chionogaster turnerii (Bourcier, 1846) or even if Tschudi's ''Amazilia chionogaster" was published before Gould or Bourcier. All are published (or not) in the year 1846? Was the priority already analysed by someone accurately? More suspect to me is if I read here about Fauna Peruana Date.

Taphrospilus · Jul 24, 2015

Another Turner was at least friend of Henry Whitely (1844-1892). If he was landowner in Peru as written in HBW Alive I have no clue.

P.S. Now I have a clue. He was the husband of Clorinda Matto de Turner and his name was Joseph Turner.

Taphrospilus · Jul 26, 2015

There is even a chance that Trochilus turnerii is dedicated to Joseph Turner as Bourcier might have met him when he was consul in Ecuador?

mb1848 · Jul 29, 2015

As to priority Zimmer says : There is a question as to which of the names, hypoleuca or
turnerii, has priority, since both appear to have been published in November, 1846. I therefore follow the first acceptance of one name in preference to the other which appears to have been given by Simon in 1921.
http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/handle/2246/4324/n1475.pdf?sequence=1 .

Taphrospilus · Jul 29, 2015

Thank's Mark on this information (even if might need additional analysis to check if Zimmer is correct with his November 1846. As well it is not obvious if this kind of information is availble somewhere in the museums and libaries of the world). Do you know as well which month chionogaster was published by Tschudi? I ask as Gould mentioned leucogaster the preoccupied name and not chionogaster.

Here we know only that part 7 to 12 were published 1846.

Do we know which part contained chionogaster? If we know what month was this part published?

Taphrospilus · Jul 29, 2015

From here I think another Turner can be updated in HBW Alive. From here I agree with Björn that Henry John Allen Turner, Esq. is most likely his name.

Björn Bergenholtz · Jul 29, 2015

Taphrospilus said:
From here I think another Turner can be updated in HBW Alive. From here I agree with Björn that Henry John Allen Turner, Esq. is most likely his name.

That´s the single one source that made me add the John for J.!

:t:
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Taphrospilus · Jul 31, 2015

H. H. Turner

Regarding this HBW Alive entry:

Col. H. H. Turner (1867-1930) British Army engineer, surveyor in India (syn. Lophura horsfieldii).

Maybe it is this person

TURNER, HERBERT HALL

(b. Leeds, England, 13 August 1861; d Stockholm, Sweden, 20 August 1930)

at least he was around 1898 as well in India.

Anyway at the time of description he was Lieutenant and not Colonel. OD here.

Björn Bergenholtz · Aug 2, 2015

Martin, I don´t see any connection between the "G. [Gennæus] turneri" and the astronomer Herbert Hall Turner (here). Do you? What (on earth) made you suspect this guy?

I doubt he has anything more in common with "H. H. Turner" (of the Royal Engineers in India) than their mutual initials and their death year.

The guy we´re looking for seems to have served a long time; (Sergeant, Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Colonel) H. H. Turner. Thereby I assume (if anyone got the time) he can be found somewhere in the UK National Archives (here).

Good luck finding him!
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Taphrospilus · Aug 3, 2015

I consider him because in the first link in my post is written:

He was active in establishing and contributed to eclipse expeditions to the West Indies in 1886, Japan in 1896, India in 1898, Algiers in 1900, and Egypt in 1905

In the in The journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal I found only two articles realated to H. H. Turner here and here.

So the India visit is very close to both this publications. As well he published:

Christie, W. H. M. and H. H. Turner. Report on the Expedition to Sahdol, Rewah State, Central India, to observe the Total Solar Eclipse of 1898, January 22, p. 1—21.

Regarding his military career (if Herbert Hall Turner had one) I have no clue. As well I am missing the original source about the life date of the H. H. Turner we might looking for. Where is the information from? Only from The Eponym Dictionary of Birds? We have proofed this book several times wrong.

And as Richard Mearns wrote in his review in The IBIS to this book:

The main drawback is the lack of references for individual entries, an addition that would have turned a good book into a great one, and could have been achieved without doubling the page count.

And in The Royal Engineers Journal - Vol 57 - p. 289 is written:

The Astronomer Royal (Sir William Christie) and Professor H. H. Turner of Oxford were the principal observers at '943.1 289.

Oxford is where he lived. See here.

But maybe this is wrong and Turner, Henry Blois Hawkins here is the right person?

Björn Bergenholtz · Aug 5, 2015

I found some time, I couldn´t keep my fingers from it … and plunged into the digitized world of the UK National archive myself.

And; voilà!

The "H. H. Turner" of the Royal Engineers is:
Horace Harrison Turner, born in Ipswich, 13th August 1867 …

See attached jpg, or here, page 450/1157.

If he´s our guy, commemorated in the invalid "G. [Gennæus] turneri" I do not know, but I sure think so.
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Björn Bergenholtz · Aug 5, 2015

I do think he is the right guy!

Horace Harrison Turner did participate in the Survey of India, as indicated by Post No. 8. See link; here:

TURNER, Horace Harrison, Col., R.E. (retd.), late Survey of India. — First commn., dated 23rd Nov., 1889; apptd. to survey of India dept, as asst. supt., April, 1897 ; dep, supt, March, 1910 ; transfd. to Basrah survey party, Sept, 1915, to Aug …

Horace Harrison Turner ... over and out!

Björn Bergenholtz · Aug 6, 2015

I keep on talking to myself … now regarding:

turnerii
● in the invalid "Trochilus Turnerii" BOURCIER 1846 [syn. of today's subspecies (Amazilia) Leucippus chionogaster hypoleuca/hypoleucus GOULD 1846 as "Trochilus hypoleucus … or ?*]

Taphrospilus said:
There is even a chance that Trochilus turnerii is dedicated to Joseph Turner as Bourcier might have met him when he was consul in Ecuador?

I don´t know if Bourcier ever met "M. [M. = Monsieur, Mr.] Turner, naturaliste anglais" in Equador, but I think the sentence in the very beginning of the OD could be as important:

Cette espèce, qui habite la Bolivie, a été rapportée par M. Alcide d'Orbigny.

I guess a question as relevant might be: Did Mr. d'Orbigny ever meet a Mr. Turner? And if so, in Bolivia?

----------------------------------------
*For the synonymity, also see here.
----------------------------------------

However, as to
● the "Merganetta turneri" SCLATER & SALVIN 1869 (here) a k a "Turner's Torrent-Duck" [i.e. today's subspecies Merganetta armata/leucogenis turneri]

The male bird now described was shot and skinned by Mr. Turner, a friend of Mr. Whitely's, near Tinta. We have therefore acceded to Mr. Whitely's request to call it, if new, after his friend's name.

Thereby I agree that it´s fair to assume it´s commemorating Mr. Joseph Turner, English merchant (and husband of the Peruvian writer Clorinda Matto de Turner) as he (they) lived at Tinta, Cuzco, Peru, also the place where Mr. Turner died, the 3rd of March 1881.

This Joseph Turner must also, trusting the quote, have been somewhat of a taxidermist, hunter, preparator or likewise!?

If he, as well, is commemorated in the above mention Hummingbird is far harder to tell? It could certainly be of another Mr. Turner, not necessarily located in South America. It´s 23 years between the two OD's. I guess it all boils down to what Joseph Turner was doing before he settled down at Tinta. Or if Bourcier alt. d'Orbigny had any connections to yet another Turner.

Anyone know?
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Taphrospilus · Aug 6, 2015

@ Björn: Well found :clap:

So only two Turners left. Bourciers/D'Obrignys Turner and H. W. Turner in British Honduras dedication given by Rev. Raymond Pius Devas.

I have the feeling it could be the Managing Director of COLONIAL AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT CO., LTD.

COLONIAL AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT CO., LTD.
Established in British Honduras in 1936.An agricultural and development concern specialising in the growing of sugar cane for which a contract for six thousand tons annually has been executed with the Corozal Sugar Factory Co. Ltd., Pembroke Hall, Corozal. Total acreage of sugar cane under cultivation is 500 acres with other crops taking up 15 acres. The Company's estate, known as Estrella, is situated at Pembroke Hall, Corozal District, next to the Corozal sugar factory, and comprises 2,080 acres. Directors : H. W. Turner (Managing Director), William Schofield, Harold R. Sharp. Auditor and Secretary : William Schofield. Partners : Mrs. W. W. Lake, William Schofield, Harold Sharp and H. W. Turner.

The British Caribbean Who, What, why - Vol 1 - p. 810, 1955

As well I found some information on British Honduras, Agriculture and Turner:

Board of Agriculture
Chairman-The Director of Agriculture.
Members.—L. P. Ayuso, Hon. J. S. Espat, Hon. H. T. A. Bowman, J. Thomas. B. Smellie, and H. W. Turner.
Secretary. — C. A. Burgess

The West Indies and Caribbean Year Book, Vol 20, 1947, p. 482

Taphrospilus · Mar 19, 2021

Taphrospilus said:
Another Turner was at least friend of Henry Whitely (1844-1892). If he was landowner in Peru as written in HBW Alive I have no clue.

P.S. Now I have a clue. He was the husband of Clorinda Matto de Turner and his name was Joseph Turner.

The Eponym Dictionary of Birds claims:

Torrent duck ssp. Merganetta armata turneri P. L. Sclater & Salvin, 1869
We cannot be certain of Turner's identity, as the original description only says that the holotype 'was shot and skinned by Mr. Turner, a friend of Mr. Whitely's, near Tinta. We have, therefore, acceded to Mr. Whitely's request to call it, if new, after his friend's name' (q.v. Whitely, H Jr.) We think it refers to a wealthy landowner, Dr. J. Turner (d. 1881), who married (1871) Clorinda Matto (1852-1909), a well-known Peruvian author of the period. They are known to have lived on his estate at Tinta (1871-1881).

But of course the question remains when he was born?

P.S. And Directors : H. W. Turner (Managing Director) is still completly unknown.

l_raty · Mar 19, 2021

Taphrospilus said:
But of course the question remains when he was born?

There is a possible answer at https://gw.geneanet.org/carfelguevara?lang=en&pz=raymundo&nz=de+elias+y+quintana&p=joseph&n=turner

PScofield · Mar 19, 2021

Joseph Turner
1838 (date according to marriage certificate - he was 33 in 1871 born England) – 3 March 1881 (buried Tinta)

Taphrospilus · Mar 19, 2021

Taphrospilus said:
There is even a chance that Trochilus turnerii is dedicated to Joseph Turner as Bourcier might have met him when he was consul in Ecuador?

I think we can forget about this. In 1846 Joseph Turner would be only 8 years.

But I still think it could be a dedication for Dawson Turner. One year before Bourciers description Hebecladus turneri was named for him. Here we can even find a relationship to birds.

l_raty · Mar 19, 2021

Re. the original priority questions...

Taphrospilus said:
OK I understood T. leucogaster was occupied by Amazilia leucogaster (Gmelin, JF, 1788) therefore Amazilia chionogaster (von Tschudi, 1846). This is mentioned by Tschudi here. But how do we know in the subspecies who was first Gould's Amazilia chionogaster hypoleuca (Gould, 1846) or Bourcier's Amazilia chionogaster turnerii (Bourcier, 1846) or even if Tschudi's ''Amazilia chionogaster" was published before Gould or Bourcier. All are published (or not) in the year 1846? Was the priority already analysed by someone accurately? More suspect to me is if I read here about Fauna Peruana Date.

The dates of Fauna peruana are not well established.

For the genus-group name Ampelion, the publication on p. 21 https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/40008067 is now usually deemed to have occured in 1845. (And thereby to have precedence over the publication on p. 137 https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/40008183, which is deemed to date from 1846. This precedence is crucial because, on p. 137, three species are included in Ampelion which are not included on p. 21, and Gray subsequently designated one of these as the type. If p. 21 was published first, the single species included there is the type by monotypy and Gray's designation is invalid (and we are using the name correctly); but if p. 21 and p. 137 were published at the same time, the type is Procnias cucullata Swainson 1821 as designated by Gray (and current usage is not tenable at all).) This 1845 date follows the Peters Checklist, I believe.

Contrary to Edward's assumption, quoted on Zoonomen, Trochilus chionogaster is perfectly available on p. 39 of Tschudi's work, https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/40008085 :

12. Tr. chionogaster Tsch.

Tr. leucogaster Tsch. Consp. Av. Nro. 209.

This is of course not a description, but Trochilus chionogaster here is already a nomen novum for Trochilus leucogaster Tschudi 1844, described earlier in: https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/9697438 .

Pp. 21 and 39 are generally thought to have both been published in Lieferung 6. Thus, If we accept the argument that led to using Ampelion as it is currently used, Trochilus chionogaster should probably be dated to 1845 too. (Whether this is correct or not, I cannot tell for sure.)

mb1848 said:
As to priority Zimmer says : There is a question as to which of the names, hypoleuca or
turnerii, has priority, since both appear to have been published in November, 1846. I therefore follow the first acceptance of one name in preference to the other which appears to have been given by Simon in 1921.
http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/bitstream/handle/2246/4324/n1475.pdf?sequence=1 .

But Bonaparte 1850 https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/43549035 , who gave precedence to turnerii, was obviously before Simon 1921 https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/15051031 , who gave precedence to hypoleucus; so, if we are to base the choice on a first-reviser act, as Zimmer did, we may currently have a problem...

That being said, I'm not clear how Bourcier's name can actually be shown to have been published in Nov.
This name was published in the "Sep" 1846 issue of Rev. Zool. (Soc. Cuv.) https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/2362722, which included a report on a meeting of the Société Entomologique de France on 11 Nov 1846 https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/2362677, and can thus not have been published before this date. But this is no proof that it was published before the end of Nov. This issue was reported as having been received by the Paris Académie in the séance of 28 Dec 1846 https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/2806102 .
Any idea ?

Taphrospilus · Mar 19, 2021

Taphrospilus said:
I think we can forget about this. In 1846 Joseph Turner would be only 8 years.

But I still think it could be a dedication for Dawson Turner. One year before Bourciers description Hebecladus turneri was named for him. Here we can even find a relationship to birds.

See as well here Turner and d'Orbigny both mentioned in context with Academie de Rouen.

turneri - The mystery Mr. Turner and Priority questions (1 Viewer)

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