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Old Friday 31st October 2008, 18:39   #1
lmans66
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Camera Settings

I know in a previous posting (for all cameras) I have seen that many people prefer the AV aperture Priority. I have a 450 and have found I prefer the TV shutter priority and manipulate the ISO . In AV the pictures are not sharp and that is taking it down as low as I can. I have a 80-400 Tokina and usually have been shooting between 300-400 depending on AF.

I am fairly new at the Rebel recently coming up from a S3 ...what do others shoot at and why? thanks, jim (Washington State in USA, dreary and cold and foggy about now too)...
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Old Friday 31st October 2008, 19:30   #2
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A rule of thumb is that for hand holding minimum shutter speed should equate to focal length e.g. 1/400 sec with a 400mm lens. Even 1/400 can be difficult to achieve and hold steady so I prefer to look for some support whether monopod or leaning against a fence or tree etc.

Some zoom lenses have a tendency to be a little soft at full aperture so reducing aperture a little can help with sharper photos. In AV mode you control aperture so on say an f5,6 lens you can select f6,3 or f7,1 or preferably f8 to get the best out of the lens.

Adjusting ISO is okay to some extent. Mostly I shoot at ISO400 but anything much higher leads to sensor noise - graininess in the image. If very bright then I drop to ISO200.

About the only time I use TV for birds is when using external flash as I can set a higher sync speed in TV mode - usually 1/500.
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Old Friday 31st October 2008, 22:06   #3
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I believe, I may be wrong, that the fastest shutter speed can only be obtained using AV, Aperture Priority.
I have never used TV, Shutter Priority.
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Old Friday 31st October 2008, 22:54   #4
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Movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnZ View Post
I believe, I may be wrong, that the fastest shutter speed can only be obtained using AV, Aperture Priority.
I have never used TV, Shutter Priority.
So my understanding is that when you use AV, you set the 'f' factor but the shutter is automatically set? Right or wrong?

I used the AV setting and had great photos...F8, ISO 400 and the shutter automatically set....

But I noticed that any birds on the ground moving around when I was taking the photo were blurred. The ones sitting on a fence etc turned out fine but movement wasn't taken into account in AV. TV takes into account movement right?

Quite the learning process...but fun! jim
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Old Saturday 1st November 2008, 01:23   #5
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Perhaps you can upload a handfull of pics but do it in such a way that the exif data can be checked.

When you shoot using AV what f stop and ISO are you using?

You are best getting a book on camera basics so that you can understand exposure and how it relates to f stops ISO etc.
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Old Saturday 1st November 2008, 01:47   #6
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Interesting read since I have graduated from a S3 to a Rebel 450D too. Takes some time getting used to all the settings, which I don't have it mastered yet. Everyone that has been helping me has recommended the AV mode and so far doing good for land and flight photos.

I don't have any advice since just learning myself about the camera but do agree with you it is quite the learning process. :)
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Old Saturday 1st November 2008, 23:14   #7
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When you set the camera to AV the shutter speed will be as high as possible BUT dependant on the ISO and aperture you have set. If you set the ISO to 400 on a reasonably bright day you will get a fairly high shutter speed thus reducing the chances of any blurred shots.
TV only takes into account any movement if you have a sufficient shutter speed. I don`t know about the camera you are using but it is possible that if you do not have a sufficient shutter speed then something, somewhere, will flash and that should tell you that the shutter speed is not high enough ?
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Old Sunday 2nd November 2008, 19:30   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnZ View Post
When you set the camera to AV the shutter speed will be as high as possible BUT dependant on the ISO and aperture you have set. If you set the ISO to 400 on a reasonably bright day you will get a fairly high shutter speed thus reducing the chances of any blurred shots.
TV only takes into account any movement if you have a sufficient shutter speed. I don`t know about the camera you are using but it is possible that if you do not have a sufficient shutter speed then something, somewhere, will flash and that should tell you that the shutter speed is not high enough ?
Yes, I am learning all the time....it all adds up..... I have found that the ISO is key to many things and have been playing with it in some of the refuges of the NW in Washington. Cloudy, rainy, dark...and rain.....with dark brown birds or black coots etc... Been a learning experience! jim
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Old Wednesday 5th November 2008, 20:53   #9
Tim Taylor
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Hi Jim. I use shutter priority from time to time if I'm taking pictures of something moving such as a bird in flight. That way I can make sure that I freeze the wings or get a bit of blur or whatever I'm aiming for and I adjust the ISO to the minimum necessary to get a the shutter speed and aperture I want. There are different ways of achieving the same thing and playing about and reading stuff and asking questions is the way to get better.

Good luck and have a lot of fun learning.
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Old Wednesday 5th November 2008, 22:04   #10
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Tim please do not take offence but I have to ask a question. I was always led to believe that the way to get the highest shutter speed was to use aperture priority.
I suspect I am in grave danger of learning something here ! How do you tell if your shutter speed is high enough to either freeze the action or get the amount of blur required. Is it trial and error ?
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 06:07   #11
Tim Taylor
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Hi John. I realise that relatively few people use shutter priority.

My reason for using it is to select the shutter speed I want rather than to achieve the highest possible shutter speed. Yes, it's trial and error but if I'm having a bit of a run doing the same sort of thing I get the hang of what to set the shutter speed at. If you're using aperture priority for instance and you set up for f4.5 and ISO 400 you find you're shooting at 1/2500th sec. It might be that if you were photographing swans you actually only needed 1/1000th sec to get the amount of wing freezing you wanted and you could then have had a lower ISO if you'd set this up in shutter priority mode.

Sometimes I use it for macro shots where in the particular situation I find myself in I say to myself that I have to have a minimum shutter speed of 1/125th for example. Again I use shutter priority and then tweak ISO until I have adequate aperture for the DOF needed.

Does this make some sort of sense? I don't count myself as at all expert but this is the sort of process I go through at times.
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 06:14   #12
Roy C
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The best way to get the highest possible shutter speed is to use AV mode and open the lens right up, that way you get the highest possible shutter speed for the given ISO, there is no way that TV mode can possible give you a faster shutter speed than AV mode for a given ISO.
Having said that the biggest problem with BIF is getting the metering right. If the bird is too small in the frame to effectively use spot then you will have to dial-in (guess) some exposure compensation unless you want a perfectly exposed sky with a black blob in the middle (for a dark bird). The easiest way to overcome this is to shoot in manual mode, setting the shutter speed according to the ambient light conditions.

Last edited by Roy C : Thursday 6th November 2008 at 06:19.
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 06:27   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmans66 View Post
what do others shoot at and why?
I am sure that the vast majority of bird photographers shoot in either AV or manual mode (my guess would be 99%).
Any soft shots that you are getting is almost certainly down to the shutter speed not being fast enough.
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 07:49   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Taylor View Post
Hi John. I realise that relatively few people use shutter priority.

My reason for using it is to select the shutter speed I want rather than to achieve the highest possible shutter speed. Yes, it's trial and error but if I'm having a bit of a run doing the same sort of thing I get the hang of what to set the shutter speed at. If you're using aperture priority for instance and you set up for f4.5 and ISO 400 you find you're shooting at 1/2500th sec. It might be that if you were photographing swans you actually only needed 1/1000th sec to get the amount of wing freezing you wanted and you could then have had a lower ISO if you'd set this up in shutter priority mode.

Sometimes I use it for macro shots where in the particular situation I find myself in I say to myself that I have to have a minimum shutter speed of 1/125th for example. Again I use shutter priority and then tweak ISO until I have adequate aperture for the DOF needed.

Does this make some sort of sense? I don't count myself as at all expert but this is the sort of process I go through at times.
I see what you are saying Tim but this is maybe clouding the issue a little for the original poster who is concerned with getting sharp shots.
Setting a shutter speed for a specific purpose of blurring or freezing a particular subject (like a flowing waterfall) is a bit more advanced I would think.
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 08:33   #15
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Thank you very much Tim.
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 08:37   #16
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Hi Jim,

I wonder if you are perhaps struggling with the explanations because we are all so familiar with the concepts, taking shortcuts .. Apologies if I am now teaching granny to suck eggs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmans66 View Post
So my understanding is that when you use AV, you set the 'f' factor but the shutter is automatically set? Right or wrong?
Yes :-)

Each different mode is aiming at the same thing - a "perfectly" exposed shot. Exposure means exposing the sensor to the light aiming to get the right brightness of image, a fundamental principle with the terminology going right back to the beginnings of the art. That perfect exposure is a balance between ISO (sensitivity of the camera); aperture ("f stop" - amount of light allowed through the lens); and shutter speed (amount of time that light falls onto the sensor). Adjusting one forces an adjustment to at least one other in the opposite direction to achieve the same perfect exposure. Adjusting any of these has other effects which you may or may not desire.

The different modes on the camera do not alter any of that. What they do is change the parts of the process that the camera controls :
In the basic modes on your camera the camera controls aperture, shutter speed and ISO.
In P mode you can change ISO, the camera controls aperture and ISO.
In AV, as you said you control ISO and aperture (f stop), but the camera controls shutter speed.
In TV you control ISO and shutter speed, but the camera controls aperture.
In manual mode, you control all three.

Now it gets complicated. In deciding what to use it is important to think in terms of many situations in photography.
1. Situations where lighting is predictable - where you can predict what is going to be required and set accordingly.
2. Situations where you cannot predict lighting.
3. Situations where you can predict that the camera will be fooled to a degree, but you don't know what the base will be.
... and so on.

Bird photography has massive numbers of special situations. For instance - white (or black) birds; shooting birds against the sky. For all these special situations people develop different approaches. Some of these are alluded to in other posts.

In general for birds you do want the highest shutter speed possible to reduce blur. Where you don't know exactly how much light a shot will require, many people usually allow the camera to set that shutter speed at the time of shooting to allow it to react instantly to adapt shutter speed to the maximum possible by using AV. Prior to shooting they will set ISO and aperture appropriately (usually to maximum acceptable values for their requirements). That way they know aperture and ISO will be acceptable, shutter speed is pot luck - but the best possible in the situation.

Maximum acceptable values ? Most people find aperture is best stopped down one or two stops from the maximum for their lens. There are two reasons for this. Almost all lenses are not at their sharpest at maximum aperture (wide open). Secondly depth of field is increased by stopping down - the distance at which focus is perfect becomes deeper. Wide open a bird may not even be in sharp focus from front to back.

As ISO is increased the image tends to become grainier - less sharp. Manufacturers have been working very hard on this. On my camera (30d) I find anything under ISO 800 pretty good, so usually shoot birds at 640. Newer and more expensive cameras can achieve similar quality at even higher ISOs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmans66 View Post
I used the AV setting and had great photos...F8, ISO 400 and the shutter automatically set....

But I noticed that any birds on the ground moving around when I was taking the photo were blurred. The ones sitting on a fence etc turned out fine
Apart from the movement, I'd guess the intensity of lighting, overall, was better for birds sitting on the fence, so the shutter speed selected would be higher. It might help you to use centre spot metering only (if available on your camera) so that the exposure is optimized for the bird as far as possible.

Remember your eyes are far more adaptable than a camera. What you see fine, the camera may find too bright or too dark for it's ideal operation. Watch the settings the camera is selecting in the viewfinder as you shoot. You may be surprised and learn a lot about when you are likely to get good shots and when the lighting is too extreme. Remember that rule of thumb about shutter speed being 1/focal length or better for sharp shots ? That really is a minimum for birds - even for set ups with some kind of image stabilization, because that doesn't stop the subject moving !

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmans66 View Post
but movement wasn't taken into account in AV. TV takes into account movement right?
Not really. That is a different issue. It is shutter speed that minimizes effect of movement. The question is how to arrive at the best possible shutter speed ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmans66 View Post
Quite the learning process...but fun! jim
Not half :-)

Mike.
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 13:46   #17
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Just one teensy weensy nit pick if I may Mike. I am more than happy to use my lens wide open it being a Canon 400mm f5.6.
However I do recall many years ago reading Amateur Photographer and then, if not now, the sweet spot of most lenses was f8.
I also use a 40D which, in my opinion, produces almost grain free shots at even ISO 800. As I usually forget to change the ISO this is more or less essential for me !
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 14:22   #18
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This is one great forum....as Citrinella stated "I wonder if you are perhaps struggling with the explanations because we are all so familiar with the concepts, taking shortcuts".... Oh so true.

I have been using a canon s3 for a few years now and have not really played with it much beyond the sports mode. But with my 450 now, I am trying to shoot in AV mode all the time. Yes, it has been confusing but all of a sudden things are beginning to make sense, I see the light, or is that ISO and shutter and aperture? ...Anyhow...

Most of the time with my Tokina lens I have been shooting with aperture at 8, with ISO moving down since lately there has been sun. I too heard f8 was the a magic number. But it looks like if I can move the aperture down to f5.6 which is one stop up from f5 I should be able to get the shutter up from what it has been lately, stuck around 400 or so. That is why the blurring is occurring and because the light has been off and on I lowered the ISO down yesterday to 100, so I was just creating blurring.

So my plan is now....F5.6....on AV mode and let shutter do its thing...ISO move into more of a 400-800 range depending on light. Zoom moves in an out depending on what I am looking at. Okay, .....

Now next minor question is white balance. I have moved it to cloudy day but often times the days are a combination of both sunny and cloudy. Is it best to leave on cloudy? lmans
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 14:52   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmans66 View Post
This is one great forum....as Citrinella stated "I wonder if you are perhaps struggling with the explanations because we are all so familiar with the concepts, taking shortcuts".... Oh so true.

I have been using a canon s3 for a few years now and have not really played with it much beyond the sports mode. But with my 450 now, I am trying to shoot in AV mode all the time. Yes, it has been confusing but all of a sudden things are beginning to make sense, I see the light, or is that ISO and shutter and aperture? ...Anyhow...

Most of the time with my Tokina lens I have been shooting with aperture at 8, with ISO moving down since lately there has been sun. I too heard f8 was the a magic number. But it looks like if I can move the aperture down to f5.6 which is one stop up from f5 I should be able to get the shutter up from what it has been lately, stuck around 400 or so. That is why the blurring is occurring and because the light has been off and on I lowered the ISO down yesterday to 100, so I was just creating blurring.

So my plan is now....F5.6....on AV mode and let shutter do its thing...ISO move into more of a 400-800 range depending on light. Zoom moves in an out depending on what I am looking at. Okay, .....

Now next minor question is white balance. I have moved it to cloudy day but often times the days are a combination of both sunny and cloudy. Is it best to leave on cloudy? lmans
Couple of slight problems Imans. Only certain long lenses are sharp wide open, mostly top quality Prime lenses (as John has pointed out the Canon 400mm f5.6 is very sharp wide open). I would suspect that your lens may not be sharp at f5.6 so you may have to stop it down to f8 to get the best out of the lens, by all means try it out.

Just for info one stop down from f5.6 is f4 (not f5)

Re: the White balance - do you shoot in raw? if so then just leave the White balance on auto and correct in the raw converter.
Having said that I always shoot in raw with the white balance on auto and very rarely have I needed to change this during conversion. So my advice is to leave it on Auto.
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 17:15   #20
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What Roy said. I, sadly, still shoot in JPEG so I don`t really know too much about RAW.
Are there no intermediate settings on the 450D ? On the 40D there are settings for f6.3 and f7.1 before you get to f8.
Sometimes I set my lens up at f6.3. God knows why !
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 18:05   #21
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Sometimes I set my lens up at f6.3. God knows why !
Nice one John - LOL
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 18:38   #22
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Another vote for auto white balance and shooting in RAW.
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 19:58   #23
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With the 450 there is a F4.5, 5, 5.6, 6.3, 7.1 and 8.0.

I have a Tokina 80-400 zoom...not Canon quality, I know but not bad.....and especially for the price. I also liked the weight (37 oz) and length (11cm).

At the moment the Northwest is cloudy and rainy.....I found if I go AV mode, even with ISO up high the shutter speed is still low....when I am at aperture 5.6 or 6.3 etc...

If I go to manual mode, I can get shutter speed today around 1000, aperture at 5.6 and ISO at 1600...

So I can see there is no clear formula to use here as I know in sunnier days or less cloudy days I can shoot in AV mode 5.6 with better shutter speed etc....

Each day is different...each setting will have to be too.

Thanks for the information on the whitebalance. I will set it to auto and play with RAW...but I know that is another can of worms as well :-)
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Old Thursday 6th November 2008, 20:06   #24
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With the 450 there is a F4.5, 5, 5.6, 6.3, 7.1 and 8.0.
Inmans, this is in 1/3rd of a stop increments. the actual stops go f2.8, f4, f5.6, f8, f11 .... Example: f6.3 is 1/3rd of a stop above f5.6. This is the same on all Cameras.

Re the white balance, I would still advise using Auto even if you shoot in jpeg.
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Old Friday 7th November 2008, 18:36   #25
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For those camera novices (not birding)....like myself.....here is a great site on aperture:

http://www.photoxels.com/tutorial_aperture.html

There is a cool visual that goes with the explanation of aperture.....etc....
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