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Mis-handling of raptors by ringers/banders?

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Old Monday 7th January 2008, 16:13   #126
JedHarrison
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poecile View Post
couple of points to address from that:

of course population studies work on individuals. If they worked on means, it would not be necessary to have uniquely-coded rings for EACH bird for a start. Or colour-ringing. If you are monitoring a population, you often know every individual in your study area. So you will be very aware if/when it disappears. Analyses may work on means, but data collection is at the individual level. IPMR doesn't ask for mean ringing data, it asks for individual.
.

To prove damage one way or another you need mean results, you will need a group of birds (individuals) that has a mean different response to another group (for the simplest of analyses)

Results from individuals are anecdotes, not evidence as you would require it.
hence why i suggested that it would be next to impossible to gather such data


We cannot simple go by the rules that everything ok unless we have a great big study showing otherwise, as you say this would be immoral to gather sufficient data. so the only way to deal with this is by using anecdotes and collecting them together and the discussing them.... If we had hard evidence there would be not much need for a debate on techniques.

It does however seem that there are only a few posters showing concerns or offering their opinions on the best technique, so i guess it is a bit dull to continue with this non-discussion.

I'm done anyway..
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Old Monday 7th January 2008, 17:14   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JedHarrison View Post
To prove damage one way or another you need mean results, you will need a group of birds (individuals) that has a mean different response to another group (for the simplest of analyses)

Results from individuals are anecdotes, not evidence as you would require it.
hence why i suggested that it would be next to impossible to gather such data


We cannot simple go by the rules that everything ok unless we have a great big study showing otherwise, as you say this would be immoral to gather sufficient data. so the only way to deal with this is by using anecdotes and collecting them together and the discussing them.... If we had hard evidence there would be not much need for a debate on techniques.

It does however seem that there are only a few posters showing concerns or offering their opinions on the best technique, so i guess it is a bit dull to continue with this non-discussion.

I'm done anyway..
Jed chin-up. Go start a new thread asking for ringers opinions on their preferred methods of handling raptors, I for one promise to contribute. With good wording and not knocking any other method you should get reasonable responses, who knows might even encourage FalconBirder back into the debate/discussion!

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Old Monday 7th January 2008, 17:15   #128
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Originally Posted by Poecile View Post
To be fair, Peter, if ringers want to go and chat in private then they can use the BTO ringer's forums. Birdforum is, and should be, an open forum.

Of course you are right. I was thinking in terms of ringers across all schemes and countries, birdforum embraces those countries running ringing schemes. The BTO forum only includes those licensed and/or ringing in the UK. T’was only an idea.
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Old Monday 7th January 2008, 17:18   #129
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will do !

i will give it a few days though! I have learnt quite a bit from this discussion anyway.. just not all about the topic in question!

For my first foray in birdforum, it has been a lot more open minded than other forums that i have visited---
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Old Monday 7th January 2008, 19:11   #130
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I have never seen either of these techniques used in the UK (therefore telling the BTO will not be very useful). only abroad. I think that this should be the taregt audience of this thread. as well as keeping UK ringers aware of different techniques.
Neither have I. And I have seen this one handed method used will no apparent ill-effects by professional raptor ringers in certain countries. Banders who handle raptors on a day to day basis and clearly know the limits of a bird.

Having banded in a number of different countries, I can make a frank assessment of the British ringing scheme, and in terms of the BTO being one of the 'leaders' in the global banding community, I would hesitate to agree. There are many ways in which the BTO is missing out on various scientific possibilities, that a standardisation of protocol would allow. That however is a topic for another thread.
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Old Wednesday 23rd January 2008, 18:53   #131
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I fully agree with the post. The people handling the birds look uneasy and there are already many ruffled feathers. It is necessary to take a few scratches to ensure the bird is not damaged.
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Old Wednesday 23rd January 2008, 23:20   #132
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I fully agree with the post. The people handling the birds look uneasy and there are already many ruffled feathers. It is necessary to take a few scratches to ensure the bird is not damaged.
Sounds to me like you haven't handled raptors. 'Ruffled' feathers are different to damaged feathers...and 'scratches'....well...you clearly haven't handled too many Buteos or larger Accipiters, let alone the Strix!!!
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Old Saturday 26th January 2008, 14:57   #133
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I would say with out banding and the use of satellite transmitters here in the State of New York USA we would not have done as good a job of reestablishing the bald eagle back from one remaining nesting pair in the 1960s to the 130 some odd counted this winter of 2007 & 2008 both from air and land. (Count not in yet). The nest is visited just the one time but monitored on a regular basis for the safety of the birds and that one visit is for the banding of the eaglets. Without being able to get feedback on the birds ID (from the bands) we would have no idea what or where they are or doing or going. This helps in keeping tabs on habitat conditions and fighting against development.
After the ban on DDT in 1972, the eagles were reproducing and relocating in areas that were good eagle habitat years ago in New York State and at a rate to adulthood of 16%, which was a good factor, and one we could only tell because we could read the bands on their legs.
What you say is very true about some mishandling as I have done some photos at the Raptor center I do some volunteer work at of a red tail hawk and what had happened to the tail feathers from being mishandled. It is in the process of being rehabbed and will be released when ready.
I myself have been on countless banding trips with our endangered species unit of New York State and on several of these we also took blood samples to check the levels of lead and other toxic chemicals that could be dangerous to a top of the food chain raptor like the bald eagle.
I would say your feelings of the people that are dedicated to the survival of a species that mishandle is a small amount but still worth bringing up. Again I say any education on any species of (for me raptors) but in general all birds and animals is certainly worthwhile. My web site www.loubuscher.com has a link on it called Still Soaring. These are the words from the hard years of bringing the eagle back and I have to say there may be some that seem to be wrong but I believe from what I have seen in the field and rehab center I have only met people that really know what their doing when it comes to this practice.
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Old Saturday 26th January 2008, 15:32   #134
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PS here is a showing of the release of a small female and the banding and transmitter placing after being rehabbed after near death found on the ground and unable to fly. I would think you will find the handling of this bird in proper order and well prepared for going back into the wild. The transmitter will let us know should she get into any trouble and any sightings and a band reading will even tell more about how and where she is doing and going. (Can be viewed as a slide show if wanted).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/loub/se...7600437374155/

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