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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Saturday 22nd June 2019, 09:33   #1701
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@ Chosun There is no doubt whatsoever that Alzheimer's, early-onset dementia etc. are seriously on the rise. And it is impossible to account for this if you exclude EMR, as other environmental toxins have existed for quite some time and in some ways we are seeing progress in diminishing them. Did you read the paper (link at the end of my last post) about EMFS and neurological deaths? Some very scary stuff there, but I can't see how to convince you unless you look at it. Yes, learning to operate computers is a skill, but I think less of a skill than the work the computer does once you learn to operate the program--at that point you are letting the computer do the work for you, and surely that is the point? And if a small child can learn to press certain buttons to get a certain result, I have to say I don't think that is real cleverness but more what you see rats doing in a Skinner box. The built-in "reward" of using a computer or smartphone--a cartoon, a game, whatever--predisposes learning to press the right button to get the reward.

@ Ed, Actually, there is research showing that the more people use their brains, the more likely they are to avoid diseases like Alzheimer's; this would include reading books, learning more than one language, etc, and it is important to keep doing these things as one ages. Alzheimer's and dementias are complicated, as I understand it, by the fact that they are partly inherited and partly circumstantial/environmental--to a degree there is some control over whether you get them, and how badly. So there is a point to continuing to actively exercise the brain, and by and large screen-based activities do not qualify as they are to a large degree passive.

As for letting a computer think for you, people do it all the time. How many people rely on spell-checkers and grammar-checkers, for instance, and have the confidence to over-ride the grammar checker? Personally I find the grammar checker to be wrong quite often (or at least incapable of understanding certain structures) and reliance on spell-checkers has produced some wonderful howlers in modern books: "make due" for "make do", and "a wild hare up his ass" instead of "a wild hair"-- neither a spell checker or a grammar checker would catch those. Also there are other aspects: search engines like Google definitely filter results to promote an agenda (I never use Google any more as they are NOT neutral). And I seriously question how much free will is involved in a lot of programs including social media which are known to be manipulative (eg people behaving in ways that will collect "likes" and "follows". I would include all of these aspects in the category of "computers think for you"--even if people don't realize it. And finally, just by using a computer, you are chained to a certain order, a certain chain of pathways, a particular way of reasoning. Remember the IBM slogan, "think outside the box"? With a computer, you can't.

As for reporters...you might enjoy this article: https://www.investigate-europe.eu/in...eir-curiosity/

@ all I very much recommend everyone watch this short video "5G from the guy installing it".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoYT...ature=youtu.be
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Old Saturday 22nd June 2019, 21:00   #1702
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Cell phones, the litany of horrors continues—

https://slate.com/technology/2019/06...one-spurs.html
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Old Sunday 23rd June 2019, 05:03   #1703
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Originally Posted by Purple Heron View Post
@ Chosun There is no doubt whatsoever that Alzheimer's, early-onset dementia etc. are seriously on the rise. And it is impossible to account for this if you exclude EMR, as other environmental toxins have existed for quite some time and in some ways we are seeing progress in diminishing them. Did you read the paper (link at the end of my last post) about EMFS and neurological deaths? Some very scary stuff there, but I can't see how to convince you unless you look at it. Yes, learning to operate computers is a skill, but I think less of a skill than the work the computer does once you learn to operate the program--at that point you are letting the computer do the work for you, and surely that is the point? And if a small child can learn to press certain buttons to get a certain result, I have to say I don't think that is real cleverness but more what you see rats doing in a Skinner box. The built-in "reward" of using a computer or smartphone--a cartoon, a game, whatever--predisposes learning to press the right button to get the reward.



@ Ed, Actually, there is research showing that the more people use their brains, the more likely they are to avoid diseases like Alzheimer's; this would include reading books, learning more than one language, etc, and it is important to keep doing these things as one ages. Alzheimer's and dementias are complicated, as I understand it, by the fact that they are partly inherited and partly circumstantial/environmental--to a degree there is some control over whether you get them, and how badly. So there is a point to continuing to actively exercise the brain, and by and large screen-based activities do not qualify as they are to a large degree passive.

As for letting a computer think for you, people do it all the time. How many people rely on spell-checkers and grammar-checkers, for instance, and have the confidence to over-ride the grammar checker? Personally I find the grammar checker to be wrong quite often (or at least incapable of understanding certain structures) and reliance on spell-checkers has produced some wonderful howlers in modern books: "make due" for "make do", and "a wild hare up his ass" instead of "a wild hair"-- neither a spell checker or a grammar checker would catch those. Also there are other aspects: search engines like Google definitely filter results to promote an agenda (I never use Google any more as they are NOT neutral). And I seriously question how much free will is involved in a lot of programs including social media which are known to be manipulative (eg people behaving in ways that will collect "likes" and "follows". I would include all of these aspects in the category of "computers think for you"--even if people don't realize it. And finally, just by using a computer, you are chained to a certain order, a certain chain of pathways, a particular way of reasoning. Remember the IBM slogan, "think outside the box"? With a computer, you can't.

As for reporters...you might enjoy this article: https://www.investigate-europe.eu/in...eir-curiosity/

@ all I very much recommend everyone watch this short video "5G from the guy installing it".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoYT...ature=youtu.be
Whew! I must say you packed a lot in there. Although I'm prepared to discuss many of the highlighted statements on a behavioral science basis, the exercise could be quite exhausting. So rather than doing that, I'd appreciate if you could provide a link to published "...research showing that the more people use their brains, the more likely they are to avoid diseases like Alzheimer's. I've heard that said often enough, although convincing evidence is elusive. It would also seem necessary to justify your very strong statement to Chosun that it is "impossible" to account for the rise in Alzheimer's and early-onset dementia if EMR is excluded.

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Old Monday 24th June 2019, 10:02   #1704
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@ Ed Research showing that using your brain to prevent/slow Alzheimer's has been around since the sixties, and while I honestly don't have the time to look it up, my husband, who was a medical writer for many years, tells me there is a significant body of work. I can give you two anecdotal bits of evidence: in his mid-eighties, (about 20 years ago) my father started taking German classes (he already spoke 6 languages) and when I asked him why, he told me that he wanted to make sure he didn't get Alzheimer's (this because he had recently read an article saying that learning another language helped in this regard). Another example: a friend here on Samos has a mother in her late eighties who is developing Alzheimer's; the doctor told her son he must get her to read as much as possible as this will slow it down. My point here is that if a local GP on a not-very-significant island knows this, it is common knowledge in the medical community.

As for the statement that it is impossible to account for the rise in Alzheimer's and dementias if you exclude EMR, some time ago I posted a chapter from a book by Ronald Kostoff (who specializes in Alzheimer's) where he states that EMR is a factor that acts synergistically with other factors that cause Alzheimer's. I will try to locate it and repost below. As I said before, I believe passive screen time (I would include TV) must be a factor, as well as the research showing that EMR causes cognitive dysfunction. Although the paper I posted on EMFs and neurological deaths a few days ago is dreadfully written (made me ache to get out a blue pencil and offer editing services to the authors) I think they make the case quite convincingly that without including EMR, you CANNOT account for the steep rise in neurological diseases/deaths.

And if this is the case, think how many millennials are going to be developing early-onset dementias in a few years' time, as they have been exposed to wireless technologies since conception. There is always a time lag with new technologies--for instance, the full dreadfulness of what asbestos did to people only reached its apex in recent years, a good while after asbestos was declared a carcinogen and banned. We are still paying for the invention of asbestos and organophosphates, and will continue to do so. And even if wireless technologies were banned this instant, many people would continue to become ill in various ways for many years as a result of their having been invented in the first place. So we can continue to insist that EMR is harmless and wait another 10-20 years for the full consequences to become crystal clear, by which time it will be too late for a great many people (not to mention nature), or we can show a modicum of sense and listen to what the independent scientists (not industry) are saying. Unlike asbestos and organophosphates, wireless technologies are addictive--and this is the main problem in a nutshell, since no one wants to give them up.

@ all This is interesting:

Report: Electrosmog impact on environment and climate (Sweden)

Published 2019-04-19 This is the official website of the report. View / download here, or the embedded version below. There is also a swedish summary to view and download here: Svensk sammanfattning. And here follows a shorter english summary:

Summary

Life as we know it, and all the planetary systems, are possible due to the incredible functions and forces of energy & electromagnetism. This fundamental platform covers everything from the "global electrical circuit"to subtle signals within Your body.About 100 years ago humans modified electromagnetism, thereby introducing a new paradigm in human impact on nature as a whole (including humans).
The modified versions of electromagnetism with destructive impact are pollution = electrosmog.

Since electrosmog is a (dirty) part of the fundamental platform it has the potential to impact anything ...from tiny insects to the atmosphere.
The major part of electrosmog today is wireless microwave communication, including Wi-Fi = factor W.

Factor W is often significant wherever negative impact is. The health impact is widely confirmed, and a growing number of studies also show the environmental impact:

Amphibians (like frogs) are going extinct, and a big increase of deformed frogs is a clear warning sign since amphibians in general are good indicators of local environment status.
Birds and flying insects have shown extra impact due to their many electromagnetic functions and that they sometimes are in “line of fire”. Several studies show impact on bees specifically.
Vegetation (crops and trees). Trees show poor growth, smaller leaves and decline/premature death. Trees play many important roles - from mycorrhiza (micro-level) to climate regulation (macro-level).

Biodiversity (also a climate regulator) is clearly impacted by factor W, and experts say that we have entered "the 6th mass extinction" (which is manmade for the first time).

http://milken.se/w.html
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Old Monday 24th June 2019, 10:29   #1705
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@ Ed I can't seem to find the Kostoff piece I am looking for--he has written a lot! I'll keep looking.

@ all I am posting the PDF on Electrosmog: Environmental Impact and Climate Change
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Factor W report JL - draft 3.9.3.pdf (442.1 KB, 4 views)
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Old Monday 24th June 2019, 11:10   #1706
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Whew! I must say you packed a lot in there. Although I'm prepared to discuss many of the highlighted statements on a behavioral science basis, the exercise could be quite exhausting. So rather than doing that, I'd appreciate if you could provide a link to published "...research showing that the more people use their brains, the more likely they are to avoid diseases like Alzheimer's. I've heard that said often enough, although convincing evidence is elusive. It would also seem necessary to justify your very strong statement to Chosun that it is "impossible" to account for the rise in Alzheimer's and early-onset dementia if EMR is excluded.

Ed
Ed, with all the blanket statements and long bows Diana is drawing I'm expecting a picnic. As someone who didn't get the 'language gene' or whatever the secret ingredient is, it will be interesting to see what the future holds for me . Proper indigenous language keepers just politely and patiently chuckle at my attempts at pronunciation, let alone memory.

With an Uncle who has a dead set roo loose in the top paddock, the subject is of increasing interest. I doubt he has had very much contact with mobile phones or WiFi throughout his life. Who knows what the cause is - it certainly didn't come from my Aunty Jessie's side of the family since she ran her own farm single handedly into triple digits !

There have been many 'demons' over the years - from Aluminium in deodorants to whatever - I wonder where Vaccines will finish up in all of this. The last book I read on the subject was called "Super Brain" by Deepak Chopra (and his lesser known doctoral mate who had a lifetime of research on the topic). I wonder what it says that I can't recall the co-authors name nor large parts of the gist of the book ! It seemed to descend into an ego w**k at times.

Getting back to relating to the previous paper - it is thought that [NEW] thoughts (such as learning a language, or even dare I say it a new computer operating system or menu) engage new neural pathways (I'm not up on whether this includes building new synapses). Sorry I don't have any references - I'm just going on memory ! :) I belive this is what the previous authors were drawing analogies to in terms of muscles - hypertrophy <-> atrophy.

I will leave this to others to discuss, I have a few little things to deal with that dwarf time and space .....




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Old Monday 24th June 2019, 13:04   #1707
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Exclamation

A rather interesting photo posted by David Whelan in the Nikon Lovers Australia FB group ....
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi...9196&source=57

Click image for larger version

Name:	David Whelan_Nikon Lovers Australia.jpg
Views:	47
Size:	171.0 KB
ID:	698411



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Old Monday 24th June 2019, 15:42   #1708
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
A rather interesting photo posted by David Whelan in the Nikon Lovers Australia FB group ....
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi...9196&source=57

Attachment 698411

Chosun
Your link appears not to work/no longer works, unfortunately... Clicking on the image does, fortunately!
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Old Monday 24th June 2019, 15:59   #1709
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Your link appears not to work/no longer works, unfortunately... Clicking on the image does, fortunately!
MJB
I think that's probably because it's a closed group - so only members will have access. I included it in case anyone wanted to contact the gent and seek further information ....


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Old Monday 24th June 2019, 18:14   #1710
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
A rather interesting photo posted by David Whelan in the Nikon Lovers Australia FB group ....
Nice photo. Whats the structure (not part of a cell tower I hope!)? Is there a nest on it somewhere or is the falcon about to land on it for some other reason?
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Old Monday 24th June 2019, 23:45   #1711
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[email protected] Ed Research showing that using your brain to prevent/slow Alzheimer's has been around since the sixties, and while I honestly don't have the time to look it up, my husband, who was a medical writer for many years, tells me there is a significant body of work. I can give you two anecdotal bits of evidence: in his mid-eighties, (about 20 years ago) my father started taking German classes (he already spoke 6 languages) and when I asked him why, he told me that he wanted to make sure he didn't get Alzheimer's (this because he had recently read an article saying that learning another language helped in this regard). Another example: a friend here on Samos has a mother in her late eighties who is developing Alzheimer's; the doctor told her son he must get her to read as much as possible as this will slow it down. My point here is that if a local GP on a not-very-significant island knows this, it is common knowledge in the medical community.

As for the statement that it is impossible to account for the rise in Alzheimer's and dementias if you exclude EMR, some time ago I posted a chapter from a book by Ronald Kostoff (who specializes in Alzheimer's) where he states that EMR is a factor that acts synergistically with other factors that cause Alzheimer's. I will try to locate it and repost below. As I said before, I believe passive screen time (I would include TV) must be a factor, as well as the research showing that EMR causes cognitive dysfunction. Although the paper I posted on EMFs and neurological deaths a few days ago is dreadfully written (made me ache to get out a blue pencil and offer editing services to the authors) I think they make the case quite convincingly that without including EMR, you CANNOT account for the steep rise in neurological diseases/deaths.

...
Hi Diana,

Sorry to be a pest, but Kostoff's bio is shown at the end of a recent article entitled "EFFECTS OF TOXIC STIMULI COMBINATIONS ON DETERMINATION OF EXPOSURE LIMITS," but I'm reluctant to agree that he specializes in Alzheimer's.
Quote:
AUTHOR BIO
Received a Ph. D. in Aerospace and Mechanical Sciences from Princeton University in 1967, and
subsequently worked for Bell Laboratories, Department of Energy, Office of Naval Research, and MITRE
Corp. Published over 200 peer-reviewed articles, served as Guest Editor of four journal Special Issues
since 1994, obtained two text mining system patents, and presently is a Research Affiliate at Georgia
Institute of Technology.
Published on numerous medical topics in the peer-reviewed literature, including:
 potential treatments for Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson's Disease, Raynaud's Phenomenon,
Cataracts, SARS, Vitreous Restoration, and Chronic Kidney Disease;
 potential causes of Chronic Kidney Disease and Alzheimer's Disease;
 potential treatment protocol for prevention and reversal of Alzheimer's Disease; and
 potential impacts of Electromagnetic Fields on health.
Listed in:
 Who's Who in America, 60th Edition (2006);
 Who's Who in Science and Engineering, 9th Edition (2006), and
 2000 Outstanding Intellectuals of the 21st Century, 4th Edition, (2006)
The second article attached may be the book chapter you referred to, but it doesn't mention Alzheimer's even though it's titled "Modified Health Effects of Non-ionizing Electromagnetic Radiation Combined with Other Agents Reported in the Biomedical Literature."

His claim to fame, as I see it, is to use his patented search engines to explore the biomedical literature, aka, "text mining," and in the case of EMR, speculate about its "potential" effects. In other words, from a scientific perspective, he formulates theories from his knowledge of radiation physics and data mines the literature for evidence. It's an interesting approach but it falls short of experimental proof and has the potential flaw of confirmation bias. Most of his writing, however, is fairminded and balanced.

Finally, with regard to the anecdotes, I wouldn't be too quick to give great weight to physician's opinions/directions, which are to a large extent circumscribed by 'medical guidelines' and supported by Big Pharma's advertisements. Many current eldercare recommendations, I've come to see, are based on the "It doesn't hurt to try .." philosophy. You know, it doesn't hurt to read a book, take up knitting, do some birdwatching, etc. And old folks may indeed be happier, and in that respect healthier, but I'm not sure they live longer or forestall their deterioration. That requires experimental proof.

Ed
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Old Tuesday 25th June 2019, 00:42   #1712
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Nice photo. Whats the structure (not part of a cell tower I hope!)? Is there a nest on it somewhere or is the falcon about to land on it for some other reason?
The only description the photographer put was:
"Male Peregrine landing at a communications tower ..... Bacchus Marsh, Vic. 19/6/2019"




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Old Tuesday 25th June 2019, 14:44   #1713
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The only description the photographer put was:
"Male Peregrine landing at a communications tower ..... Bacchus Marsh, Vic. 19/6/2019"
Nowadays, quite a few cameras are equipped with WiFi.
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Old Wednesday 26th June 2019, 10:45   #1714
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Nice photo. What’s the structure (not part of a cell tower I hope!)? Is there a nest on it somewhere or is the falcon about to land on it for some other reason?
That structure is a sector antenna. And the bird is right in front of it, facing the maximum radiation area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sector_antenna

In Spain it's not uncommon to see stork nests on large cell towers. Maybe it's just being such a backwards country our storks are stupid and they haven't been educated on the nefarious effects of electromagnetic radiation.

(First photo from Morocco actually but it's still funny)
https://www.alamy.es/foto-las-ciguen...-80299407.html

https://caminandopormadrid.com/caray-con-la-ciguena

This one is about 30 Km away from my home

https://www.deia.eus/2016/08/22/bizk...mungia#Loleido

And this one is funny. Storks are getting into the apartment development business.

This company, Gartel, are very good microwave antenna installers. I know because I hired them once. And turns out one of the service they advertise is getting rid of stork nests and installing countermeasures.

https://gartel.net/node/14

(And no, I don't work for a cell company)

Last edited by Borjam : Wednesday 26th June 2019 at 10:47. Reason: Typo
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Old Wednesday 26th June 2019, 16:18   #1715
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That structure is a sector antenna. And the bird is right in front of it, facing the maximum radiation area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sector_antenna

In Spain it's not uncommon to see stork nests on large cell towers. Maybe it's just being such a backwards country our storks are stupid and they haven't been educated on the nefarious effects of electromagnetic radiation.

(First photo from Morocco actually but it's still funny)
https://www.alamy.es/foto-las-ciguen...-80299407.html

https://caminandopormadrid.com/caray-con-la-ciguena

This one is about 30 Km away from my home

https://www.deia.eus/2016/08/22/bizk...mungia#Loleido

And this one is funny. Storks are getting into the apartment development business.

This company, Gartel, are very good microwave antenna installers. I know because I hired them once. And turns out one of the service they advertise is getting rid of stork nests and installing countermeasures.
All very interesting but proving nothing, Im afraid, since we know from previous posts on this thread that White Storks (along with corvids, starlings, House martins, House sparrows, Common buzzards, Goldfinches, Blackbirds, Robins, Blue tits, Wood pigeons, Great spotted woodpeckers, Song thrushes & Collared Doves) are happily exempt from the evil effects of EMR.
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Old Thursday 27th June 2019, 01:21   #1716
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I have the impression that nesting countermeasures are a much larger threat than radiated boogeymen.

Bird spikes, devices such as those plainly and effectively reduce nesting habitat.

I can't find many companies successfully marketing tin foil EMR shielding hats.

Quick search turns up many profitable companies that eliminate habitat. Forcing wildlife to move elsewhere and perhaps amplifies the intolerance shown to nature.
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Old Thursday 27th June 2019, 10:04   #1717
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All very interesting but proving nothing, Im afraid, since we know from previous posts on this thread that White Storks (along with corvids, starlings, House martins, House sparrows, Common buzzards, Goldfinches, Blackbirds, Robins, Blue tits, Wood pigeons, Great spotted woodpeckers, Song thrushes & Collared Doves) are happily exempt from the evil effects of EMR.
(Boldface mine, pointing out a redundancy)
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Old Thursday 27th June 2019, 15:58   #1718
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(Boldface mine, pointing out a redundancy)
Time for a learning moment for me, apparently:

You said citing corvids and starlings is redundant. Not sure I understand, corvids are from the family Corvidae and starlings are Sturnidae...
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Old Thursday 27th June 2019, 16:11   #1719
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. . .You said citing corvids and starlings is redundant. Not sure I understand, corvids are from the family Corvidae and starlings are Sturnidae...
He’s joking, alluding to a long-ago post by PH in which she misclassified starlings as “corvids”.
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 15:32   #1720
Johann Sebastian Bach
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Yet another danger from extensive smartphone use is proposed here in Nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-21625-1

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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 16:32   #1721
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Yet another danger from extensive smartphone use is proposed here in Nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-21625-1
See #1702 this thread for a popular account of this distressing phenomenon.

Fried brains, reduced sperm counts and now tiny horns! What further additions to the grisly list lurk in the wings, I wonder?
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Old Friday 28th June 2019, 17:15   #1722
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Yet another danger from extensive smartphone use is proposed here in Nature:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-21625-1
So humans are literally adapting to the head/neck-down posture of a typical cell phone usage pattern? Very cool, in a scientific sorta way; otherwise, kinda creepy.

I also liked the irony that this trait is associated with Neanderthals historically, if I skimmed correctly (alot of the physio jardgon made it tough to follow).

I'm not surprised. I'm a sight typist and have had to go some effort to keep my ergonomics in check so I don't get severe neck aches. I have also experienced pretty bad neck aches using a cell phone to read on transit because of the head-down posture.

Granted, I have a pre-existing neck injury which makes me sensitive to neck pain anyway, but still anecdotally correlates.

And alot of posture issues came-up as we moved from writing, to typewriters, to computers. Or from field labor to factory labor to desk jobs. So, add mobile device use to the ergonomic maladies affecting humankind.

Don't think this has anything to do with EMR though. I'd expect the abnormalities to be localized to the ears and side of the face, or the areas around the buttocks, groin, and hip (cell phones in pockets).

I keep my phone on a belt clip on my right hip so I'd expect right colon, gallbladder, liver, and kidney issues. But at my age, those are all squishy bits that start having problems even if I never had a cell phone.
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Old Saturday 29th June 2019, 00:45   #1723
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So humans are literally adapting to the head/neck-down posture of a typical cell phone usage pattern? Very cool, in a scientific sorta way; otherwise, kinda creepy ..... I have also experienced pretty bad neck aches using a cell phone to read on transit because of the head-down posture ...... So, add mobile device use to the ergonomic maladies affecting humankind. Don't think this has anything to do with EMR though.
This is indeed a major problem for children whose skeletons are still growing - perhaps homo mobilus will evolve a shoulder joint at the neck ?!

Of course children face many other problems - too much indoor time (evidence that reading in less than natural light is leading to increasing myopia), and attendant sedentary lifestyles leading to increasing obesity and related diseases, woeful diets of artificial and overly processed yet nutritionally devoid foods leading to same, and the real biggie - never having heard the word "no".

The simple solution to this ergonomic stressor is to hold the device out at eye level. The shoulders are relatively weak muscles so the time involved will be limited. Win win.

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I'd expect the abnormalities to be localized to the ears and side of the face, or the areas around the buttocks, groin, and hip (cell phones in pockets).

I keep my phone on a belt clip on my right hip so I'd expect right colon, gallbladder, liver, and kidney issues. But at my age, those are all squishy bits that start having problems even if I never had a cell phone.
What about hands !?!

Where is the flood of evidence for all manner of EMR related diseases affecting the hands? In this entire thread I don't recall seeing any .........





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Old Saturday 29th June 2019, 00:57   #1724
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What about hands !?!

Where is the flood of evidence for all manner of EMR related diseases affecting the hands? In this entire thread I don't recall seeing any .........
Now that you mention it...very good point.
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Old Saturday 29th June 2019, 06:16   #1725
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Wish you hadn’t brought that up. Ain’t we got enough to worry about. I can just visualise the frenzied searching by PH for “papers and research findings”

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