Processing Raw to Tiff to jpeg to web (1 Viewer)

Nikon Kid · Apr 9, 2009

At the moment I am processing raw in DPP, doing some work in DPP on the image
and converting to jpeg, open up jpeg in Adobe E6 and resize to 800x600,
and do some more processing and save as jpeg and put on the web.
Now that I am getting better at processing I can see I am losing some
quality from raw to jpeg. After reading around the threads and other forum
looks like I need to convert to tiff, and then do my processing in Adobe E6
then save as in jpeg. At what point do I resize the image of the tiff do I do this,
before I do any processing in Adobe E6.

All help gratefully received

Roy C · Apr 10, 2009

Nikon Kid said:
At the moment I am processing raw in DPP, doing some work in DPP on the image
and converting to jpeg, open up jpeg in Adobe E6 and resize to 800x600,
and do some more processing and save as jpeg and put on the web.
Now that I am getting better at processing I can see I am losing some
quality from raw to jpeg. After reading around the threads and other forum
looks like I need to convert to tiff, and then do my processing in Adobe E6
then save as in jpeg. At what point do I resize the image of the tiff do I do this,
before I do any processing in Adobe E6.

All help gratefully received

I think it depends on what you are going to do with the Image Terry. If you are just going to use it for web display and not going to print it then you can resize it as the first operation when you go into elements. There are some advantages to resizing first because that way what you see at each stage of the processing (sharpening etc) is what you get at the end of the day. If you sharpen before resizing then you will find that you after you resize you may have to go back and sharpen some more because of the downsizing. The last op would be to convert to jpeg.

On the other hand, if you want to print the image as well as display on the web then you would have to do all your processing first and save it without resizing for printing. you would then resize and save a copy for web use.

Hope this helps.

Nikon Kid · Apr 10, 2009

Thanks for reply Roy, I don't print at the moment, just for the web. I have a Red Kite that I processed in raw and did a jpeg on,
I will now do a tiff of the raw and resize and see if we can see the difference, I will post both here when I have finished them.

Nikon Kid · Apr 10, 2009

This is what I did on the second image from raw saved as 8bit tiff and dialed in 800x600 saved and converted.
Went into Adobe E6 carried some auto level enhance and sharpen then saved as jpeg can you see any difference.

EDIT : I can see an improvement in the second image. What do you think........

Another EDIT third shot maybe improvement when i was in DPP had to save to tif come jpg 16 bit I think ? i might have lost my way here because cannot
save as tiff in 16 bit to dispaly on forum it wants to save as .jpf ??? ( looks like I am losing a bit of detail in the tail ?)

Another EDIT forth shot now done as per Adey did some more adjustments in S&H just see if this a better processed shot,
I think it might be a bit better if I ran neatimage over it in tiff full file, I think I am going to buy the neatimage pro to be able to do it in 16 bit.

Roy C · Apr 10, 2009

I does look a bit better Terry but why not convert as a 16 bit tiff?. The more work you do on an image after conversion the more you could gain by converting as a tiff before editing.

I do feel there is more to be got of of this shot, especially by bringing out the shadows a bit - I have taken the liberty of having a very quick play with the image and came up with the attached. I was, of course working with the finished jpeg so IQ is not that good but it gives you an idea.

Nikon Kid · Apr 10, 2009

The image had already been lifted in the shadows and highlights in the raw, but I think you might have gone over the top there Roy.
I do agree there might be more to be had from the image, so I went on neatimage website and asked about there plugin for photoshop,
I am thinking about buying it, I have asked them to run the image through neatimage and see what happens. About the 8 bit v 16bit tiff,
there might be a problem with 16bit and Adobe Elements 6, I don't know ? maybe I will try a 16 bit tiff and see how I get on.

Roy C · Apr 10, 2009

Nikon Kid said:
The image had already been lifted in the shadows and highlights in the raw, but I think you might have gone over the top there Roy.
I do agree there might be more to be had from the image, so I went on neatimage website and asked about there plugin for photoshop,
I am thinking about buying it, I have asked them to run the image through neatimage and see what happens. About the 8 bit v 16bit tiff,
there might be a problem with 16bit and Adobe Elements 6, I don't know ? maybe I will try a 16 bit tiff and see how I get on.

I agree it is over the top Terry, it was just a rough edit to show you that there is more detail to be pulled out.
Neat image is very good noise reduction software but I did not think the images was particularly noisy, I assume you do or are you expecting it to do something else?. I have both NI and noise ninja but did not think the image needed running through. (ISO 500 on the 50D should not need a lot of noise reduction unless you have severely underexposed the shot and tried to push it in processing).

Nikon Kid · Apr 10, 2009

Hi again Roy, I converted another image to 16bit in DPP and opened up in AE6
but dont seem to be able to save to show on the bird forum its OK in AE6
but is saved to file extension jpf, how do I get round that ?

Roy C · Apr 10, 2009

Nikon Kid said:
Hi again Roy, I converted another image to 16bit in DPP and opened up in AE6
but dont seem to be able to save to show on the bird forum its OK in AE6
but is saved to file extension jpf, how do I get round that ?

Terry, with a 16bit file you have to convert to 8 bits before you can save as a jpeg.

Nikon Kid · Apr 10, 2009

Roy C said:
Terry, with a 16bit file you have to convert to 8 bits before you can save as a jpeg.

Thanks Roy, I have never done a convert in AE6.

'So lets get this right, save as/convert 16bit tiff in DPP 800x600
work on file in AE6 16 bit tiff then save as/convert to 8bit jpg to display on web........'

BTW take look at the third image some more adjustments but i think was done in jpg

A forth image will come later if what I have said is correct in ' '

Thanks for your help Roy with this certainly learned a lot over the last two days and maybe the lurkers have as well.

Adey Baker · Apr 10, 2009

Nikon Kid said:
'So lets get this right, save as/convert 16bit tiff in DPP 800x600
work on file in AE6 16 bit tiff then save as/convert to 8bit jpg to display on web........'

No! Not 800x600 at this stage. Save at the full size and work on it at the full size, only downsizing to, say, 800x533 (if you're not cropping the image) as you 'save for web' (if you choose this option it will automatically convert to 8-bit).

Nikon Kid · Apr 10, 2009

Adey Baker said:
No! Not 800x600 at this stage. Save at the full size and work on it at the full size, only downsizing to, say, 800x533 (if you're not cropping the image) as you 'save for web' (if you choose this option it will automatically convert to 8-bit).

Thanks Adey, I will give what you said ago to-morrow

EDIT did the forth image have a look see what you think.

Nikon Kid · Apr 11, 2009

Roy C said:
Neat image is very good noise reduction software but I did not think the images was particularly noisy, unless you have severely underexposed the shot and tried to push it in processing).

Hi Roy,
I have been talking to the guy who runs the neatimage web forum and he
says you should run neatimage at the full file size tiff as the 1st part of your
workflow, this image of the Red Kite needed to have the shadows lifted in
DPP and in AE6 as you are aware, when you view the full size tiff you can
really see the noise in it, so I assume if I run neatimage at this stage I will
get an improvement. Now my only problem is weather 16bit or 8bit neatimage
programme is the way to go, being that I revert back to 8bit for the web.
well i have asked this question on the neatimage forum.

I hope you have followed what I am trying to say |=)|

Roy C · Apr 11, 2009

Nikon Kid said:
Hi Roy,
I have been talking to the guy who runs the neatimage web forum and he
says you should run neatimage at the full file size tiff as the 1st part of your
workflow, this image of the Red Kite needed to have the shadows lifted in
DPP and in AE6 as you are aware, when you view the full size tiff you can
really see the noise in it, so I assume if I run neatimage at this stage I will
get an improvement. Now my only problem is weather 16bit or 8bit neatimage
programme is the way to go, being that I revert back to 8bit for the web.
well i have asked this question on the neatimage forum.

I hope you have followed what I am trying to say |=)|

Looking at the EXIF Terry (ISO 500 f8 1/4000 sec) I would say that the shot was significantly underexposed in the first place (if you are not using manual then you would need to dial in some exposure compensation for a shot like this - poss +2) By pushing the exposure in processing you create noise, especially in the shadow areas.
Had you correctly exposed the bird in the first place then the image should have been noise free on a 50D at ISO 500 and the shadows would not have needed lifting too much. Neat image will never fully compensate for a badly exposed shot. If you have a lot of noise and you run NI (or any other NR programme) it is very easy to ruin the detail in a shot and you end up with a smeared mess ( you can use a mask to selectively run noise reduction but even this will not be good enough for a very noisy image and you will still see ugly detail in the shadowed areas that have been lifted).

Correct exposure is critical to a good image IMO and rather than worrying too much about rescuing a badly exposed shot you should concentrate on getting the exposure right next time IMO.

We have all been there when we start out, especially for birds in flight or against a very light backdrop - if you just leave it to the camera you can end end up with a perfectly exposed sky with a black blob in the middle. spot metering can help if the spot is covered by the bird but for birds that are small in the frame the only answer is exposure compensation or Manual metering.

This is my take on it anyway others my disagree.

Nikon Kid · Apr 11, 2009

I agree with you Roy, but this was completely out of the blue did not expect a Red Kite so close in the woods coming over a clearing in the trees, I had
about 3/4 seconds to shot off 12 shots all in focus, but as you can see the sun was on top of its head and of cause the excitement of seeing it so close.
Yes I am learning to shot darker birds with + exposer but thats all about learning, if it happened again to-morrow I think I would do much better. Now I
am hoping that the neatimage will help to get me a better finished jpg than the one I have managed to get so far. Well I have just spent me money
on it 16 bit plug in for the Adobe E6 from all the reviews it seems to be the best NR software available we will see later when I have tried it out on the
Red Kite images. Going through this process has learned me alot in a few days.

Nikon Kid · Apr 12, 2009

Red Kite fifth image process DPP raw some small adjustment lift shadows convert/save as 16 bit tiff, open up in AE6 adjustments
in neatimage for NR, adjustments and sharpening convert to save to web resize to 800x600 and adjust sharpening in unsharp mask.

This is my first go through neatimage so I might improve a bit more with experience, anyway here is the image please comment. Please compare with the first image in post #4

Stephen Fletcher · Apr 12, 2009

Roy C said:
Correct exposure is critical to a good image IMO and rather than worrying too much about rescuing a badly exposed shot you should concentrate on getting the exposure right next time IMO.This is my take on it anyway others my disagree.

I have to agree totally, im not sure what you are trying to do here. Lifting shadows and running through NeatImage will not rescue a poor shot. I would have binned it and gone out looking for the Kite again, or shot something else until another one came along.

Nikon Kid · Apr 12, 2009

Just trying to learn processing an image, yes its not exposed right, but thats a bit of the challenge to improve
it by processing, yes I also have to improve my camera techniques as well, but it all comes with practace

Thanks for your comments

Stephen Fletcher · Apr 12, 2009

The best way to learn processing is to practise on a good image, not a poor one, you will then see just how little you have to do to a good one. Change format, crop perhaps and a bit of sharpening, thats about it. If you practise on a poor one, you will end up twiddling this, and twiddling that, and end up with a real hotch potch that merely looks like an image that has been messed about with.

Processing Raw to Tiff to jpeg to web (1 Viewer)

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