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which cormorant (Japanese, Great or the other Great), Choshi, Japan (1 Viewer)

HouseCrow

Well-known member
Early march this year, Choshi harbour.
I have been checking Japanese cormorants for the last 2 years orso on inaturalist (and a bit in real life). Trying to find the distinguishing features for Japanese Cormorant and hanedae Great Cormorant.
I didn't think of sinensis as an option, but now i think it does look similar to our Dutch cormorants.

I don't know what the status of sinensis is, but I come across few if any records of the ssp in Japan. It is probably overlooked.


Could you give a thought on this?

for a bigger copy: https://flic.kr/p/2jVYu1s

cheers,
Gerben
 

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Hi Gerben,

Since no-one more knowledgeable than me has replied, I will do my best.

Your bird is a Great Cormorant because of the shape of the yellow face patch.

1. As regards sub-species, Birds of the World (Cornell University, formerly Handbook of Birds of the World) thinks that sinensis and hanedae are the same. Mark Brazil - Birds of East Asia - mentions both ssp but says the border between them is unclear. He then ignores the distinction and his description doesn't specify which ssp he is talking about (his book covers both Japan and China so the fact that he doesn't describe the difference is significant, I think, in that it suggests there isn't any significant difference).

If you accept that sinensis and hanedae are the same, then essentially the huge Eurasian landmass is one ssp, though the P. carbo carbo (mainly North American coastal) ssp may occur on the west of the continent.

In addition, I checked with five different Japanese-language books that I have, inlcluding two published in the last three years, and not one of them mentions any ssp at all. They simply say 'Great Cormorant'.

2. As regards the difference of Japanese (Temminck's) Cormorant and Great Cormorant, the most commonly used differentiating feature is the shape of the yellow patch behind the eye and down to the throat. If you start at the eye and follow the line of the yellow to the farthest point from the eye, it then turns vertically down or even convex in Great, whereas it is clearly concave in Japanese.

Below, I have attached an illustration from a Japanese book which shows this difference - Japanese at the top, Great at the bottom. (I hope this counts as 'fair use'.) (Incidentally, I think that the head-shapes might be the wrong way around, as I think that Japanese Cormorant has the more streamlined and slightly smaller head.)

However, in real life, it can be difficult to see this even in photos if the birds are distant. Some people seem to think that any bird at the coast must be Japanese, but I think this is quite wrong, and that Japanese will not usually be on the coast itself, but on rocks or small islands offshore.

There have been several threads on this topic in recent years; I have participated in three of them.

In this thread 'Closeup Temminck', Otarujef has a series of photos which clearly show the face pattern of Temminck's / Japanese, which you can see is different from your bird.

An earlier thread with less clear photos from Otarujef is 'HELP! difference'.

A longer thread which covered this topic in more detail, and in which I disagreed with others about the distribution of the two species, which got a little heated at one point, but ended in a friendly manner, but with no clear conclusion is 'Help with some ID from Japan'. I think Japanese Cormorant is rather less common than many suppose (at least where it can be seen clearly), and its distribution more restricted. However, although I have looked around, I haven't found much more in the way of solid information than is expressed by myself and others in the thread.

In the course of writing this, I looked at some photos of the mainly northwest US ssp P. carbo carbo which is apparently a marine bird (like Temminck's / Japanese). It seems to me that the shape of the yellow face patch of this ssp is intermediate between Great and Japanese. It made me wonder if maybe Japanese and P. carbo carbo might be more closely related than P. carbo carbo is to P. carbo sinensis? This would mean that the split between the two admitted species (Great and Japanese) has been wrongly placed. If anyone reading this knows about genetic or other studies which address this issue, I would be very interested to know.

Hope this helps.

MacNara
 

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Thanks MacNara, I fail to draw even a tiny crowd to my threads i'm afraid... so thanks for stopping by and actually staying to give a sound reply.

I may have been unclear in my first post, but I don't doubt this is a Great Cormorant. The question was whether it may be a continental Great Cormorant (sinensis) or a hanedae subspecies.
Over the last two years I have tried my best at distinguishing between Great Cormorant and Temminck's Cormorant while helping ID the Japanese records at Inaturalist. By now i am at least aware that this often poses a problem too...but is doable in quite a few other occasions as well.

My field experience is also that there's not a clearcut division between coastal and inland birds. It can be said probably that seaboardbirds are more often Temminck's than Great Cormorant and that Temminck's is hardly ever or never found inland but otherwise.... i think you are right that many Great Cormorants are wrongly labelled Temminck's just because they are at/near the sea.

Great Cormorant
I didn't realize the two subspecies are considered hardly distinguishable in the field if at all.
For example, I remember reading that sinensis - in some plumages - has an all white underside of the bill, where that same underbill is less extensively white in hanedae.
There's some mention of the ID-problem with these two subspecies in this article http://www.birdskoreablog.org/?p=14250. It also raises doubt about the existence of a valid hanedae-taxon.

Also this older Dutch Birding article mentions -and uses- the two subspecies in an attempt to clarify the features of Temminck's Cormorant in case it may stray to Europe. (https://www.dutchbirding.nl/journal/pdf/DB_1999_21_1.pdf)


Otarujef said in one of the other threads that hanedae does not make it as far north as Hokkaido and that sinensis is the standard Great Cormorant there. His alleged Great Cormorant there has the same white underbill as my subject btw*I'm curious to know where he got that information (Jef?)

I don't know what Brazil's new Japan book says about the subject.
Ebird uses the cluster sinensis/hanedae.

I found a study on haplotypes in Japanese Great Cormorants which seems to conclude that more study is needed https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7324818/ but that there is a morfological difference between hanedae (Kawa u) and the other subspecies...mostly described as it being the smallest of the ssp.

I will have another look at hanedae photos on inaturalist and 'continental cormorant' on ebird to find birds similar to my bird.

thanks for now.... i will be back soon with some samples

cheers
Gerben
 
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If you accept that sinensis and hanedae are the same, then essentially the huge Eurasian landmass is one ssp, though the P. carbo carbo (mainly North American coastal) ssp may occur on the west of the continent.
P. c. carbo most certainly occurs in NW Europe; that is where Linnaeus described it from. The great majority of cormorants in Britain away from the southeast (and virtually all in Ireland) are nominate carbo, as are those in Norway and Iceland at least. Linnaeus doesn't say where in Europe he described it from, but one would guess close to his homeland in Sweden, so they too must presumably be nominate carbo.


In the course of writing this, I looked at some photos of the mainly northwest US ssp P. carbo carbo which is apparently a marine bird (like Temminck's / Japanese). It seems to me that the shape of the yellow face patch of this ssp is intermediate between Great and Japanese. It made me wonder if maybe Japanese and P. carbo carbo might be more closely related than P. carbo carbo is to P. carbo sinensis? This would mean that the split between the two admitted species (Great and Japanese) has been wrongly placed. If anyone reading this knows about genetic or other studies which address this issue, I would be very interested to know.
I'm guessing "mainly northwest US" is a typo for northeast US? No Great Cormorants at all in the Seattle area!!

IOC has some interesting comments on this (scroll to near end of page), with slightly conflicting results from two papers. I'll see if I can dig out the references, to see what they say. But nominate carbo and sinensis intergrade in parts of Europe (SE England, Netherlands, at least), so it could be difficult to conclude. I suspect a lot more sampling is needed (e.g. how similar are European and east Asian sinensis? - as the name suggests, sinensis was described from China, so it is possible that European birds from 5,000 km away may differ).
 
ssp. carbo is actually considered quite rare in the Netherlands, and probably a large part of middle Europe.
You are right that the two sinensis may differ somewhat. I will add some faces of european sinensis for comparison later.

What i did learn already is to be be less forward in labelling hanedae at inaturalist, it is probably safer to return to Great Cormorant.

Cheers
Gerben
 
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Carbo is actually considered quite rare in the Netherlands, and probably a large part of middle Europe.
You are right that the two sinensis may differ somewhat. I will add some faces of european sinensis for comparison later.
As an aside, if central European and Chinese Great Cormorants are found to differ (no evidence that I know of currently), the European ones would become Phalacrocorax carbo subcormoranus (Brehm, 1824).
 
I don't know what Brazil's new Japan book says about the subject.

Gerben, my 2018 Helm version of Birds of Japan only mentions P. c. hanedae and states "mostly resident Kyushu, Shikoku and Honshu, summer visitor N Honshu and Hokkaido, though status changing as population increases and spreads northwards". No mention of other sub-species.
 
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I believe the cormorants in Denmark are considered to be the same as the middle European birds. I am not sure if anyone knows how many carbo subspecies birds have been seen.

Niels
 
some shots of heads of both hanedae in Japan and sinensis in the Netherlands.
edit: it seemed a good idea at first, but the result is not very helpful I guess...

Japan
photo 1 alleged hanedae 2018 may
records with full size photo: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/19233901

photo 2 alleged hanedae 2018 may
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/35971849

photo 3 alleged hanedae 2018 june
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/37565157

photo 4 alleged hanedae 2020 march
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/62694401



photo 5 possibly sinensis? 2020 march
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/62694954
 

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thanks @foresttwitcher I guess they left it unsolved, as in (all P.carbo in Japan are hanedae...like i did)

@njlarsen I think the discussion has died down a little over the last years...or i am not visiting the right forums.
The occasion carbo is seen, the last one here
https://old.waarneming.nl/waarneming/view/201689938

photo 1 sinensis Netherlands february 2019
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/20252941

photo 2 sinensis Netherlands march 2019
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/63027445

photo 3 sinensis Netherlands january 2020
https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/63028875

Obviously not all the most clear photos.... there are more to come, but i can't work them now

I really am beginning to think i need to rethink all my Japanese inaturalist ID's....
Looking for differences between Great Cormorant and Temminck's Cormorant has obscured my view on the subspecies of Great Cormorant


The gular angle is a clear and much used criteria for telling carbo and sinensis apart, at least in the dutch birding community. I will try my best at checking hanedae for that characteristic later.
 

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I believe the cormorants in Denmark are considered to be the same as the middle European birds. I am not sure if anyone knows how many carbo subspecies birds have been seen.

Niels
What about Sweden? Could be playing with fire here, if it turns out that the birds Linnaeus described actually fit into what is currently called 'sinensis' :eek!:

Linnaeus certainly described then as nidificat in altis arboribus, "nesting in tall trees" - according to some recent authors, supposedly a definite character of sinensis, with carbo 'only on rocky islands'. Though other authors have pointed out that birds identified as carbo on gular shape are nesting in trees in England, and i.i.r.c., there are ringed birds hatched on sea islands breeding in trees as adults, too.
 
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