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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

ED2 7x36 in cold weather (1 Viewer)

David Swain

Well-known member
I've been documenting my woes with cold weather focusing over in the Leupold forum: in short, I really like my Yosemite 6x30s for mixed habitat birding, but as the weather has turned sharply colder, I find I virtually cannot refocus them below 10F. We talk mostly about optics here, but I've suddenly become concerned with mechanical properties, particularly the advantages of internal focusing.

So, as a place to start, how well do the 7x36s handle in cold weather, and how do they compare with other roofs you've owned?

Thanks for your patience as I educate myself!

Dave S.
 
So, as a place to start, how well do the 7x36s handle in cold weather, and how do they compare with other roofs you've owned?

Thanks for your patience as I educate myself!

Dave S.

I seems your primary concern is with finding a binocular with minimal focus traction in cold weather. If I am reading that correctly, for all of the very good features of the ZEN ED 2 7x36, you are sailing straight at the single feature of that binocular that you will in all likelihood not like. They are a relatively stiff focusing binocular. Now I am evidently a strange sort, and as far as I am concerned the slightly stiff focus is just about perfect. It stays where you put it and when you pick the binocular up, you don't have to refocus the binocular because a too squishy wheel has moved, and you further don't have to guess which way you need to focus it to begin with.

So, having said that, I realize you may find it too stiff for your taste. I do think the focus is easier and smoother with the ZEN than the Yosemite. But there is another part to the story with the ZEN. It has a very deep field of focus (edit; OK very good depth of field and most of that depth is superbly in focus), and that coupled with the very wide field gives it a quite porro like 3-D view. The focus is one of the best within the depth field and it takes only the slightest minute nudge to move the wheel the small amount needed. Very little focus wheel movement is ever required. BTW, -15* F is the coldest I have been out with them. A bit stiffer than normal, but not enough for me to immediately notice (but I realize I must be abnormal).

The Swift Eaglet, talked about currently in the Swift sub-forum, is a steal right now, and I know of no binocular with an easier, smoother, greasy-silk-slick focus wheel action, so you might want to look at one of those as well.

Happy New Year by the way. |:d|
 
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Steve,

A perceptive reply. No, I'm not especially interested in frictionless focusing; in fact, I like firm (but not frozen!) resistance for the very reasons you suggest. In warm weather the Yosemities are just fine, so like you, I might be unusual in liking firm feedback. I have limited experience with roofs in any weather, so my question might seem a bit restrictive. I think the reason cold-weather focusing isn't mentioned very often is that roofs (especially alphas) generally don't occasion discussion of the issue I have with my Yosemities. My gut feeling is that porros with waterproofing features are at a real disadvantage in cold weather; if this is true, many other budget birders are in my situation come winter.

What interests me most in your description of the 7x36s is their depth of focus and field of view--those are the reasons I prefer porros. It's rising to the top of relatively affordable binos I'll need to try. Thanks for the feedback, and I enjoy your many contributions here.

Happy New Year!

Dave S.
 
I concur with Steve C's assessment of the ZR 7x36 in terms of its DOF and its depth of focus (shouldn't we invent an acronym? or perhaps make it lower case? - dof) giving it a porro-like 3-D view.

I wrote about this earlier or on another thread, about how I could clearly discern the distance between my neighbor's trailer and truck (the truck was parked about 20 ft. behind the trailer) with the 7x36 ED2 whereas the two looked like they were hooked together with the 8x32 LX. This was looking at them from about 300 ft. away.

It was very cold outside when I used the ED2 (high 20s) and the focuser was very stiff, but the focuser was stiff inside too, so that's the way they are, apparently.

For backyard birding, I found the lack of quick focus a negative since a nuthatch or a chickadee could land on a feeder and be gone before I could get the wheel going let alone get the bin focused on the bird.

At medium and long distances, the focuser worked fine. The good DOF and good depth of focus made focusing a lot less fussier than with the 8x32 LX.

I think that ZR should make the rubber grips on the focuser thicker so they are easier to grip with gloves on.

And, of course, there was the stray light issue. If they fixed that, I would consider buying a pair. If they didn't, that could be a deal breaker, but I could live with the stiff focuser.

Quch chu' DIS!
 
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Hello,

I was out with a Zen 7x36, in -9 degree Celsius weather, say 16 degrees Fahrenheit, and the focussing stiffened, appreciably. When it warmed up, at home, the focussing was stiffer than most roof binoculars. I will agree that its depth of field mitigated the problem but in cold weather, it is stiff.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:
 
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Yes, the wheel on the ed2 is stiff and it´s annoying. My Zeiss FL has sooo smooooth (and fast) focuser. God I love that bin.
 
Yes, the wheel on the ed2 is stiff and it´s annoying. My Zeiss FL has sooo smooooth (and fast) focuser. God I love that bin.

Hello Kristoffer,

I have to agree with you. There is no question, in my mind, that the Zeiss 8x32 FL is superior to the Zen in both mechanics and in optics. As I have writtten before the 7x36 Zen-Ray is a good binocular but it is not a great binocular. It may be a unique binocular of good value.
Today, I was out, again in -9ºC, with the FL, and there was quite a difference in ease of use.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :scribe:
 
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I think that ZR should make the rubber grips on the focuser thicker so they are easier to grip with gloves on.

Trouble is, the clearance between the knob and the barrels is about zilch, so the solution is a smaller knob with bigger ridges for better grip. Or a more angled affair like the Zeiss FL which has the big focus knob sitting higher above the barrels.

The stiffness of the ED2 is probably related to quicker gearing on a fairly tight focus mechanism to begin with (this has been said before somewhere). The original version was slower, but in the sample I had it felt smoother.

That's why, to me, the quicker ED2 focus doesn't really feel any quicker than the original. The original was slower but easier, the new version is quicker but stiffer, and in mine (so far at least) mostly a two-fingered, push-pull affair. It seems almost a wash in terms of actual speed in use.

Perhaps the next generation will have a revamped focus, but I think to have a really sweet focus will require more than just some tweaks. We're talkin' back to the drawing boards I think. Zeiss and the big boys have been at it a long time and they really know what they're doing.

As for the 3D effect in roofs, it's clear that different bins have different levels of it. But how? It shouldn't really be possible since the distance between objectives is constant. Nonetheless, objects in the Zeiss look kind of flat, in the Zen deeper and rounder. I have a Pentax ED that sort of splits the difference. Brocknroller says the LX is flat as well. It's not an issue of DOF, I don't think, but something else. What is it?

Mark
 
...

As for the 3D effect in roofs, it's clear that different bins have different levels of it. But how? It shouldn't really be possible since the distance between objectives is constant. Nonetheless, objects in the Zeiss look kind of flat, in the Zen deeper and rounder. I have a Pentax ED that sort of splits the difference. Brocknroller says the LX is flat as well. It's not an issue of DOF, I don't think, but something else. What is it?

Mark

Focal length probably plays a factor in the perception of depth of field with binoculars as it does with camera lenses. Longer focal lengths produce better depth perception even when the actual DoF is the same.

The ZR 7x36 ED2 has a longer FL than the 8x32 LX (stand them next to each other to see the dramatic difference).

In addition, the fast focuser of the LX produces shallow depth of focus. Turn it just a smidge and images in back or in front of your target become a bit blurry. This gives the perception of shallower depth of field, particularly if your focus accommodation “ain’t what it used to be”.

Field curvature also plays a role in the depth perception. When the edges are slightly out of focus and the centerfield is sharp it gives a greater perception of depth. The ZR has field curvature, the LX has very little.

Stereopsis also plays a role in depth perception in binoculars. The ZR’s 36mm objectives are slightly wider than the LX’s 32mm objectives, which might contribute slightly to a better 3-D effect.

So there are probably multiple factors involved, but I think the most significant in the depth perception between the ZR 7x36 vs. Nikon 8x32 LX are the differences in focal length and depth of focus.

Here’s a Webpage titled “Understanding DOF in Photography". Although there are different variables in photography than binoculars, there is an overlap.

Here’s an excerpt that seems most relevant:

“Even though the total depth of field is virtually constant, the fraction of the depth of field which is in front of and behind the focus distance does change with focal length, as demonstrated below (see chart and also photos near top of page).

This exposes a limitation of the traditional DoF concept: it only accounts for the total DoF and not its distribution around the focal plane, even though both may contribute to the perception of sharpness.”

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm

Addendum: As far as the stiffness of the focuser in cold weather, Steve (mooreorless) compared the ZR 7x36 ED2, Nikon 8x32 LX, and Swaro 8x30 SLC on another thread. At 5* F, the SLC was the only focuser still turning smoothly.

I've used the 8x32 LX many times in temps below freezing without any stiffness (the focuser, not me, that's a different story), but apparently a half hour in 5* F is its limit.

Although it was cold today (25* F high, not as cold as it had been, 8* F low last night), it was sunny, so I finally had a chance to use the ZRs for the first time this week.

The focuser was quite stiff after acclimating to the cold temps. Backyard birding was pointless except if I kept focused at the tube feeder. Flighty birds like chickadees and titmice were long gone before I had the chance to turn the focuser with a pair of vice grip pliers. :)

So I went to the park and observed at longer distances where the depth of field is greater. Much nicer. At longer distances, I didn't have to use the focuser much so I held the bins near the end of the barrels, which provided a very stable view.

Not much wildlife outside... a few crows chasing a hawk, a guy walking his dog, but the horses were out. Two mares and a foal were covered with jackets. The male did not have on a jacket (but it looked like he had Eskimo boots on since he was a a huge, hairy, very tall Clydesdale). He kept a close eye on me as I walked around the corral. Steam shot from his nostrils like smoke from a locomotive engine. If you rode this behemoth and he threw you, you'd know how Evil Knievel felt. :)
 
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Yes, the wheel on the ed2 is stiff and it´s annoying. My Zeiss FL has sooo smooooth (and fast) focuser. God I love that bin.

I agree totally with that. It's not you Kristoffer my Zen Ray ED2 7x36 is to darn stiff and it gets stiffer when it's cold. PIA if you know what I mean. The Zeiss FL 8x32 is wonderful isn't it. Focus is perfect.
 
Focal length probably plays a factor in the perception of depth of field with binoculars as it does with camera lenses. Longer focal lengths produce better depth perception even when the actual DoF is the same.

The ZR 7x36 ED2 has a longer FL than the 8x32 LX (stand them next to each other to see the dramatic difference).

In addition, the fast focuser of the LX produces shallow depth of focus. Turn it just a smidge and images in back or in front of your target become a bit blurry. This gives the perception of shallower depth of field, particularly if your focus accommodation “ain’t what it used to be”.

Field curvature also plays a role in the depth perception. When the edges are slightly out of focus and the centerfield is sharp it gives a greater perception of depth. The ZR has field curvature, the LX has very little.

Stereopsis also plays a role in depth perception in binoculars. The ZR’s 36mm objectives are slightly wider than the LX’s 32mm objectives, which might contribute slightly to a better 3-D effect.

So there are probably multiple factors involved, but I think the most significant in the depth perception between the ZR 7x36 vs. Nikon 8x32 LX are the differences in focal length and depth of focus.

Here’s a Webpage titled “Understanding DOF in Photography". Although there are different variables in photography than binoculars, there is an overlap.

Here’s an excerpt that seems most relevant:

“Even though the total depth of field is virtually constant, the fraction of the depth of field which is in front of and behind the focus distance does change with focal length, as demonstrated below (see chart and also photos near top of page).

This exposes a limitation of the traditional DoF concept: it only accounts for the total DoF and not its distribution around the focal plane, even though both may contribute to the perception of sharpness.”

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm

Addendum: As far as the stiffness of the focuser in cold weather, Steve (mooreorless) compared the ZR 7x36 ED2, Nikon 8x32 LX, and Swaro 8x30 SLC on another thread. At 5* F, the SLC was the only focuser still turning smoothly.

I've used the 8x32 LX many times in temps below freezing without any stiffness (the focuser, not me, that's a different story), but apparently a half hour in 5* F is its limit.

Although it was cold today (25* F high, not as cold as it had been, 8* F low last night), it was sunny, so I finally had a chance to use the ZRs for the first time this week.

The focuser was quite stiff after acclimating to the cold temps. Backyard birding was pointless except if I kept focused at the tube feeder. Flighty birds like chickadees and titmice were long gone before I had the chance to turn the focuser with a pair of vice grip pliers. :)

So I went to the park and observed at longer distances where the depth of field is greater. Much nicer. At longer distances, I didn't have to use the focuser much so I held the bins near the end of the barrels, which provided a very stable view.

Not much wildlife outside... a few crows chasing a hawk, a guy walking his dog, but the horses were out. Two mares and a foal were covered with jackets. The male did not have on a jacket (but it looked like he had Eskimo boots on since he was a a huge, hairy, very tall Clydesdale). He kept a close eye on me as I walked around the corral. Steam shot from his nostrils like smoke from a locomotive engine. If you rode this behemoth and he threw you, you'd know how Evil Knievel felt. :)

Brock:

Its nice to see some of you guys out there in cold weather! This afternoon I too went out for a walk with the Nikon 8x32 SE, at 0 F, and it soon became very stiff. I am thinking the porro trying to work the barrels up and down is a lot of effort for the Nikon.

Nice post here on the DOF on various bins you've had experience with, I agree that the Nikon 10x32 LXL that I had was much too quick in focusing and I just could not get happy with it. I will not use the SE in cold weather, save it for warmer weather. My new smaller choice, the Swaro. 8x30SLC Neu,
is one I really am liking, as I am getting more time with it. :t:

Jerry
 
I'm sure glad I don't have to deal with that kind of cold weather anymore!!! It was about 62 here today focus was nice and smooth. I can relate to having the focus stiffen by cold weather! Would be extremelly frustrating!!!
 
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