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Bean Geese (1 Viewer)

petemorris

petemorris

Well-known member
These two pictures of Bean Geese (in the broad sense) were sent to me today as the observer was concerned about the identification. Of course Tundra Bean Goose is the more likely option in Kent, and that is what they are all being called by the news services. Pic 1 is of a single bird near Woolmer Castle, Pic 2 is of three birds on Worth Marshes. I have only seen these images and not the birds, but the first bird does seem a little long billed for Tundra, shows fairly extensive orange on the bill and some white at the base of the bill. The birds on Worth Marshes also look on the long-billed side and therefore interesting. Anyone else seen them or got better photos? Taiga Bean Goose would be a good bird for Kent.

Cheers

Pete
 

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Sean F said:
But seriously, surely the only small amount of orange on the bill rules out Taiga?
Click to expand...

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Look at the birds in these photos to see the variability of Taiga.

Here's another shot of the Walmer bird showing the extent of orange on the bill better and the face pattern (white at the base of the bill). I should say that I am not convinced it is Taiga, but more interested to confirm why it is not.

Cheers

Pete
 

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petemorris said:
I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Look at the birds in these photos to see the variability of Taiga.
Click to expand...

I agree with Pete. Very variable species (both ;))

The bird with the Jackdaw looks short necked and quite small overall. The other birds look like sizeable beasts with long necks and 'whooper heads'. However, photos of these two species :)smoke:) are often deceptive, IMHO.

In the field, I think that Taiga stands tall and they look big. Also, they have a more pronounced 'John Wayne swagger'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKvvPDf-z3w

I was watching two Tundra Beans with a younger birder on Sunday and he didn't know who John Wayne was. I must be getting old. Almsot as old as Alan. ;)

Anyway, I might amble down to Sandwich at the weekend.
 
Hi,
the Taiga's can have the small orange spot in the bill too!
I go more for Taiga Bean Geese and the left bird in pic. 2 is a juv. White-fronted Goose.
Cheers
Peter.
 
The bill length is helpful, but not too conclusive, as there's a large overlap between fabalis and rossicus. According to BWP the bill of fabalis is 55-70 mm long and the bill of rossicus is 49-63 mm long. The bill colour isn't reliable either, as about 10% of fabalis show only an orange band at the tip of the bill, just like most rossicus. Rossicus isn't as variable, but on some individuals at least half of the bill might be orange. Structural differences are that rossicus has a shorter neck, a proportionally larger and rounder head and a thicker lower mandible (6.9-10.0 mm deep vs 5.3-7.3 mm on fabalis).

Here's a typical rossicus (note the thick lower mandible):
http://www.lintukuva.fi/lajikuvat/kuvahtml/1ansfab112.html

Here are two fabalis for comparison:
http://www.lintukuva.fi/lajikuvat/kuvahtml/1ansfab208.html

Despite the longish bill, the first bird looks quite smallish, short necked and large and round headed, so I'm not sure if you can make a good case for fabalis at least based on the photos. IMO the birds in the second image could also well be rossicus, but identification based on just one distant photo is difficult to me.
 
CAU said:
The bill length is helpful, but not too conclusive, as there's a large overlap between fabalis and rossicus. According to BWP the bill of fabalis is 55-70 mm long and the bill of rossicus is 49-63 mm long. The bill colour isn't reliable either, as about 10% of fabalis show only an orange band at the tip of the bill, just like most rossicus. Rossicus isn't as variable, but on some individuals at least half of the bill might be orange. Structural differences are that rossicus has a shorter neck, a proportionally larger and rounder head and a thicker lower mandible (6.9-10.0 mm deep vs 5.3-7.3 mm on fabalis).

Here's a typical rossicus (note the thick lower mandible):
http://www.lintukuva.fi/lajikuvat/kuvahtml/1ansfab112.html

Here are two fabalis for comparison:
http://www.lintukuva.fi/lajikuvat/kuvahtml/1ansfab208.html

Despite the longish bill, the first bird looks quite smallish, short necked and large and round headed, so I'm not sure if you can make a good case for fabalis at least based on the photos. IMO the birds in the second image could also well be rossicus, but identification based on just one distant photo is difficult to me.
Click to expand...

You are probably correct, and I'm sure watching them in the field would have helped. Just to show the difficulty, compare the shot next to the Jackdaw with this Taiga from a traditional wintering area of that form, and look at the structure - neck length etc?! The two perfect photos in your links of perfect examples make it look easy! If only it was always that straightforward!
 
petemorris said:
You are probably correct, and I'm sure watching them in the field would have helped. Just to show the difficulty, compare the shot next to the Jackdaw with this Taiga from a traditional wintering area of that form, and look at the structure - neck length etc?! The two perfect photos in your links of perfect examples make it look easy! If only it was always that straightforward!
Click to expand...

Yes, I linked some rather straightforward individuals, quite many are much more difficult to id, especially based on photos (and some in the field too, given the overlap in measures). I'd say that it's probably best to only id such easy individuals. Things become even more complicated if you also want to consider ssp serrirostris (which is longer billed than rossicus), but it shouldn't occur in Europe (perhaps barring escaped individuals).
 
CAU said:
Things become even more complicated if you also want to consider ssp serrirostris (which is longer billed than rossicus), but it shouldn't occur in Europe (perhaps barring escaped individuals).
Click to expand...

Very true. I'm off back to Japan this morning where we see both serrirostris and middendorffi (the local form of Taiga which has a larger deeper bill) and telling those two apart is far from easy!

Cheers

Pete
 
Here is a picture of just it's head. That bill may seem big but 'taiga' doesn't have that bulge and open gape showing the 'teeth'.
Also the bird is a rather small short necked individual
 

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