More gulls, UK (1 Viewer)

Second and first winter gulls. They both show features of YL Gull to me, however I continue to struggle with these.

Bird one - 2nd winter.
Bright bird with white head/ underparts. Dark eye-mask. Bright underwing. Distinct tail band. Bulky bird with big, black bill. Dark greater coverts. Is the 'light' primary window too big?


Second bird - 1st winter
Bright head. Belly is white but sides are marked heavily. Dark eye mask. Dark underwing. Neat tailband (narrower on the outside). Bulky bird, black bill. Dark greater coverts. Second gen scaps. Very faint window primary window.

Any comments/corrections welcome. Get these wrong at times, so would appreciate any pointers if ID is not correct.

Thanks.

Bird 2

Like you, I also used to really struggle with YLGulls (and frequently still do!). I often had 'that feeling' that you described, but sometimes just couldn't be completely certain.

Living in the north of England makes it doubly difficult, but it's worth persevering with gulls-they do get easier with time...

I'll start with your second bird. I agree it's a 1cy Yellow-legged. Aside from the features you mentioned, there are obvious signs of moult in the wing coverts. You can clearly see at least 3 new median coverts on the closest wing in the flight shot. It's harder to see similar signs on the far wing because of the angle (but I'm sure they are there too-there are certainly some gaps where feathers have already been moulted out). Both wings also show plenty of new lesser coverts coming through.
Herring Gull would never show this degree of advanced moult on the wing coverts before spring of their 2nd calendar year, so for this reason, and the overall impression, it's a nailed on YLG for me.

I'm less sure of the first bird, but do agree it's a second calendar year. My feeling is that it's a Herring Gull rather than Yellow-legged.
I don't see too many YLGs of this age, but on the ones I have seen, I would expect to see more obvious signs of new adult-like wing coverts than this bird shows - they often have a grey median-covert bar, which your bird seems to lack. The scapulars also look more typical of HG of this age, with lots of pale fringing (many YLG look much more adult-like here in November, but not all?)
I also find the dark greater covert band very typical of 2cy Herring Gull, and I can't see any signs of the contrasty dark, blackish-centred, but white fringed tertials that are often typical of YLG of this age. Many also have one or more grey, adult-like tertials at this age, but I can't see any in the flight shot. It's a difficult angle though, especially on the perched bird, but my gut is saying that it feels more like a Herring than a YLGull.

We'll see what others think...

Excellent, thank you very much. This is exactly the thoughtful response I was hoping for.

Steve has encapsulated my thoughts.

I still do not see YLG’s frequently enought to be 100% sure/suspicious with some of them but that is a good thing for me because if they hang around i can grill them further. Around here there are only Gulls in the Winter and it pays to further your ID skills with this interesting and plumage-challenging group:t:

I am terminally-guilty in simply not paying attention when abroad where they are the default large Gull species:C

Back here in Blighty i start off by narrowing my eyes at anything with a pale head and take it from there

Laurie -