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Does EMR harm living organisms?

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Old Monday 18th February 2019, 20:01   #1476
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. . .As for vaccinations, opinions do vary, but there is a strong argument to be made against vaccinating very small children as some do suffer permanent brain damage. You could say it's only one in a thousand, but what if it's your child?
Opinions vary but as far as I know the science does not.

Ok, since we’re playing the “what if” game, what if it’s your child who catches a dangerous infectious disease because you live in an area where a substantial minority of parents refuse to vaccinate their children? For real world examples, witness the current measles outbreaks in Washington state and other US hotbeds of anti-vaxxer sentiment (prior to the anti-vax fad measles was effectively extinct in North America).
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Old Wednesday 20th February 2019, 14:37   #1477
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@ hwinbermuda I was merely pointing out why some people are anti-vaccination, as an example. It is a terrible tragedy when things go wrong, as they sometimes do. My personal views are more nuanced. With regard to EMR, I would ban all wireless because I believe that it is seriously affecting nature, and that to me is sufficient reason. I would not sacrifice the insects, the birds and other wildlife for human convenience, however appealing people find these toys, when we can communicate well and quickly--and much more safely--using wired connections.

@ all

You might find the attached extremely interesting.
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Old Wednesday 20th February 2019, 21:06   #1478
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Diana,

This 1977 paper is interesting considering when and where it was done, and for some reason that it needed to be classified until 2012, i.e., 35 yrs. However, it's very incomplete regarding experimental procedures and statistical methods, so I'm not sure what to make of it. There is mention of human effects, but very little detail to go on.

Regarding earlier remarks, I cringe every time someone mentions that an "experiment" is being done on the world's population with the imposition of IoT technology. Unfortunately, from what I can tell there's no science to it at all. It's purely driven by politics and capitalism.

Ed
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Old Friday 22nd February 2019, 14:23   #1479
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@ Ed I quite agree. When people say they are being "experimented on", they do not mean that they are being subjected to a previously untried technology so that scientists can learn anything from what happens to them as a result of that exposure. There is no methodology and no purpose other than for some people to make a great deal of money. In that sense they are not being experimented on, certainly not deliberately, from any scientific point of view. When, however, they suffer from negative effects as a result of such exposure, they have a right to be sore about it, particularly as there seems to be no way to avoid it.

I found the 1977 paper interesting because it does indicate that there is reason to be concerned about mm-wave technologies, but it's hardly complete. You might find this chronological summary of wireless technologies interesting. I will attach it below as for some reason it won't attach to this post.
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Old Friday 22nd February 2019, 14:28   #1480
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@ Ed Here it is.
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Old Saturday 23rd February 2019, 23:46   #1481
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@ fugl Anti-smart meter is part of anti-wireless, since smart meters emit a great deal more EMR than do cell and smart phones, hence are dangerous to live with. They also increase electricity bills and cause fires. As for vaccinations, opinions do vary, but there is a strong argument to be made against vaccinating very small children as some do suffer permanent brain damage. You could say it's only one in a thousand, but what if it's your child?
Incresed bills? Fires? EMR? The smart meters?

I had my meter replaced by a smart meter some time ago. Yes, my bill increased. In my case it was a 1 in 100000 meters that was defective. Of course if you replace a 20+ year meter your bill can change because those things are at most calibrated when manufactured. Smart meters should be more accurate. And the second meter they installed for me was better instead. I know because I monitor my consumption closely.

On a side note I watched "Behind the Curve" on Netflix. Briliant and relevant for this thread.
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Old Monday 25th February 2019, 14:19   #1482
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@ Borjam Many, many people have complained about serious increases in their bills as a result of smart meters--this has been major news; they can't all have been defective. And I have seen figures showing that smart meters emit about 160 times as much EMR as a smartphone every time they emit, which is constantly. Also, as hwinbermuda points out, a lot of people don't want their personal data streaming out all the time.

@ all Some interesting points on the Chronology of Mobile Communications I posted last time:
page 2, Nov. 2003, reported decline in bird and bee populations around new base station masts.
page 5, May 2011, Committee for the Environment for the Council of Europe finds that EMR ay affect wildlife
pages 9-10, March 2015, Experiments on mice--EMR causes cancers including lymphomas; "increased tumor incidence...in the groups wirh weak and medium exposure levels" Note that these experiments mirror the NTP and Ramazzini studies.
p. 13, July 2016, Budenski and Hecht "call on environmental agencies to sue against [EMR] emissions." So why have they never done this????
p. 18, Aug. 2018, James C. Lin, former head of ICNIRP, publishes, "Clear Evidence of Cellphone RF Cancer Risk" based on NTP study (attached).
p.19, Nov. 2018, call for the Precautionary Principle from EMR for nature.

(Note to ED re the Russian millimeter wave paper: while we don't know how they reached these conclusions about the effects of mm waves, the effects are quite scary. I wonder if it's possible to find the papers listed in the bibliography, which might go into more detail re the methodology.)

@ all

I attach a couple of PDFs about an upcoming launch of multiple communications satellites which will be broadcasting global 3G, 4G, LTE, 5G and Wi-Fi coverage. They are in German and English. I am attaching these because I think this kind of coverage will seriously affect wildlife, and I would strongly suggest that those of you who are interested keep track of what you are seeing now and over the coming months. Insects may start to decline sharply, and this will in turn affect birds, etc. Bird declines may take as long as a couple of years to become visible but it may happen much sooner.
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File Type: pdf lin_2018.pdf (1.45 MB, 3 views)
File Type: pdf OneWeb satellites & Austria.pdf (1.36 MB, 3 views)
File Type: pdf Satellites-Begin-Worldwide-Service.pdf (883.5 KB, 4 views)
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Old Monday 25th February 2019, 18:12   #1483
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5G, the “future unfolds”. . ..

https://apple.news/AtcGXXGEQSMq-SsBO6pgmxg
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Old Wednesday 27th February 2019, 09:09   #1484
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@ all

ENVIRONMENT: 'Terrifying': Rapid Loss of Biodiversity Placing Global Food Supplies at Risk of 'Irreversible Collapse'

"This should be at the top of every news bulletin and every government's agenda around the world."

https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...k-irreversible

AND WE STILL REFUSE TO EVEN CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY THAT EMR IS CAUSING THIS AND APPLY THE PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE?
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Old Wednesday 27th February 2019, 09:45   #1485
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@ PH
AND WE STILL REFUSE TO EVEN CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY THAT EMR IS CAUSING THIS AND APPLY THE PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE?

No, very few, if any have REFUSED. many have questioned the poor scientific method, that would have made it easier to get governments to move, and many havve questioned the deplorable and pathetic presentation of hyperbole as FACT

Common Dreams has a specific stance from its own self financed position, which allows for it to dictate its presentation. It does not bow to product or advertiser pressure, but it has not shown much willingness to look at things from the right of the political spectrum either.

I actually quite like Common Dreams, having come across them when doing business in the North East US for many years, but its a wee bit like the UK Guardian, in as much as it always appears slightly unbalanced, as it presents everything from its own political agenda not giving both sides. This is a failing of all news content now, as we are told our opinions, not given the tools to form our own opinions.

This is bad, we say it is bad, you must agree it is bad OR YOU ARE WRONG! has never got me to agree with somebody.

I think this is bad because, fact, fact, fact; often has.
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Old Wednesday 27th February 2019, 12:50   #1486
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+1 hwinbermuda

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Old Friday 1st March 2019, 14:37   #1487
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@ hwinbermuda You may not like my presentation, but the fact is that very very few of you have bothered to read the science with which I back up my assertions, and a good many people on this forum have spent quite a lot of time saying that they haven't noticed anything declining at all. Common Dreams is talking about a report that the UN issued; they didn't do the survey.

As far as I can tell, there are two reasons why EMR is not being linked to species decline, and neither of them has to do with the science. One is that the nature NGOs are being funded generously by the tech/telecoms sector, and you don't bite the hand that feeds you. The other is that the military wants wireless technology, and therefore government want wireless technology, devil take the hindermost. Here is a taste of the latter:

Check out this document: this is the official US military assessment of 5G. This is full-scale economic and military war with China, which is way ahead with deploying 5G. Just see how many trillions of dollars of commerce this technology will enable. This is on the open record:
https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Por...Task_Force.pdf

Look at page 56: This is now essential to US security: "Reduce FCC and FAA impediments to rapid rollout and development of key enabling technologies in the US while incentivizing domestic manufacturing to help underpin component security"

So governments do not care if they wipe out every species on earth as long as they have military superiority. And under these circumstances, they will always find fault with the science that says they are harming people and the planet.
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Old Friday 1st March 2019, 14:53   #1488
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@ hwinbermuda I don't at all disagree with you about the media, by the way. But it seems to me that media has been telling us for yonks now that we must, must, must blame climate change for everything--to the exclusion of any other possible cause. When I look about me, I don't see that the climate change argument accounts for the kind of species decline we are witnessing. There are a great many birds and insects that can be found across a huge variety of climates, so they would be unlikely to be declining simply because the climate has changed by a degree or two. But I have noticed that when cell towers go up, and Wi-Fi is everywhere, species decline. It is starting to be spring here now, and the flowers are all coming out. However, there are incredibly few insects, and pathetically few bees. It's truly scary.

It seems to me you are pointing to the heart of the conundrum in your criticism of the media: nobody will believe something unless the media says it's true, yet everyone admits that the media has a definite agenda which is not necessarily the truth. So how do you solve that?
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Old Friday 1st March 2019, 14:59   #1489
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... a good many people on this forum have spent quite a lot of time saying that they haven't noticed anything declining at all.
Total rubbish, another figment of your imagination. Please point to where many people have spent a lot of time saying they haven't noticed anything decling at all.

Persons have provided examples that show there is not the uniform catastrophic declines that you claim, people have pointed out that some of the species you use as evidence of declines due to the presence of cell towers are actually increasing significantly in areas with dense cell tower coverage. I fail to see anyone (and certainly not 'many people') who has spend time (and certainly not 'a lot of time') saying they haven't noticed anything declining at all (but are actually saying that observed declines and increases are not in line with what you claim).


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As far as I can tell, there are two reasons why EMR is not being linked to species decline, and neither of them has to do with the science. One is that the nature NGOs are being funded generously by the tech/telecoms sector, and you don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Yes yes, the old conspiracy theory again.
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Old Friday 1st March 2019, 19:21   #1490
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. . .So governments do not care if they wipe out every species on earth as long as they have military superiority. And under these circumstances, they will always find fault with the science that says they are harming people and the planet.
But surely the generals and politicians care about themselves? Or am I mistaken that your contention is that EMR is as harmful to human beings as to the rest of animate creation?
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Old Saturday 2nd March 2019, 09:40   #1491
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@ Borjam Many, many people have complained about serious increases in their bills as a result of smart meters--this has been major news; they can't all have been defective. And I have seen figures showing that smart meters emit about 160 times as much EMR as a smartphone every time they emit, which is constantly. Also, as hwinbermuda points out, a lot of people don't want their personal data streaming out all the time.
I guess I didn't explain myself properly. After all Broken English is my second language.

Smart meters are replacing old, analog meters. Some are 30 or 40 years old, and less accurate.

In most cases in Spain the errors in the old meters were in the positive side. So it may well be that your bill will decrease.

Now, my case. It was unable to communicate with the central equipment to transmit the readings and it turns out it was measuring excess consumption. Now in hindsight I guess some clock circuitry (which can affect both metering and data transmission) was defective. It might be a one in 100,000 case, but anyway it happened.

Actually this phenomenon is fascinating, like the flat earth insanity. Turns out that all these conspiracy theories are thriving thanks not to the unfiltered flow of information on the Internet, but the blind promotion of content based mostly on the number of visitors.

And now the loop closes. One of the conspiracy theories thriving on the Internet is trying to combat mobile Internet. Amusing
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Old Saturday 2nd March 2019, 18:47   #1492
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. .As for vaccinations, opinions do vary, but there is a strong argument to be made against vaccinating very small children as some do suffer permanent brain damage. You could say it's only one in a thousand, but what if it's your child?

What utter unscientific and dangerous codswallop there is no Good science against vaccination this is fake science by a fake scientist
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Old Monday 4th March 2019, 09:20   #1493
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So, EMR and mobile devices are so frivolous and harmful. (Happy ending)

Yesterday, during an outreach activity showing the "pocket wetland" (Bolue) to some visitors, an old lady alerted us. Her dog had found a "porcupine" stuck at a fence. Of course (phew!) it was a hedhehog. But with some exotic pets one would never know!

I tried to break the wiring with a jack but the solderings were too strong, so we had to ask for help. After careful deliberations we decided that uttering some harmful electromagnetic emmissions was worth the risk. We put on our tin foil hats and called the wildlife shelter and the police asking the latter to bring a wire cutter.

5 minutes later the police arrived with a wire cutter and a large carton box. Turns out they are aware of how to act with trapped/injured wildlife. 6 minutes later a wire was cleanly cut and our friend was retrieved and put in the box. And 20 minutes later it was at the shelter, where the vet on duty told us that it seemed to be physically in good shape although, of course, severely stressed. It will spend a month or so there before being released in Spring.

Not bad for some nasty photons released into the atmosphere.

And we were responsible people and we didn't make unnecessary transmissions. So no selfies on Instagram, no tweets :P
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 14:24   #1494
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@ Jos You really should reread your own posts. I believe "nothing whatsoever wrong in Lithuania" about sums it up. I am certainly not alone in claiming catastrophic declines, or don't you read the news?

@ fugl It is a good question--but I don't have the answer. Logically, politicians and the military should care about their own health and that of their families, but they sure don't seem to. If they did, most of the poisonous and noxious things which befoul our beautiful planet would never have been allowed in the first place. So no, you are not mistaken in what I am saying. But do remember that with the military especially, we are talking about people who are quite capable of unleashing WMD of all sorts on the world, and whose perspective is not entirely rational in that sense. It's all about dominance and hegemony. If you read that Air Force paper I posted a few days ago, you might have spotted the logical flaw in the whole scenario: it's all predicated on having to have the IoT. But how stupid and insecure is it to have only one portal--the Internet--for everything? I mean, it's just asking for trouble. If you want to keep nuclear sites and government secrets secure, putting them online is just stupid. So this whole scenario is avoidable. It's really hard to get at government secrets when they're typed on paper and locked in filing cabinets in guarded buildings, yet apparently a child can hack into the Pentagon. Go figure.

@TeePeeKnot I do in fact know one person who was vaccinated at 1 year old for whooping cough and has been a drooling vegetable in nappies ever since. She was a normal baby until then. So it does happen. Personally, I think vaccinations are a good thing, though I am less convinced about combined vaccines like the MMR.
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Old Wednesday 6th March 2019, 16:00   #1495
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@ Jos You really should reread your own posts. I believe "nothing whatsoever wrong in Lithuania" about sums it up.
Post number please.

I do believe I have never said that there are no species declining in Lithuania.


Additionally, you said 'many persons' are claiming no species are declining... I am one person (and I think I have not said this either).
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Old Friday 8th March 2019, 14:38   #1496
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@ Borjam I think you really, really don't get the point. Sweet little hedgehog story, but in order to make that call which saved its life, cell towers have to be in operation 24/7. So you are not talking about a few minutes of EMR versus the hedgehog's life, you are talking about continual exposure by a great many species to a substance that causes oxidative stress, sterility, damages DNA, causes cognitive dysfunction, disrupts hormone function and much more. The question then becomes, is it worth the harm to all the species in the area of those particular cell towers to be able to make the phone call the saves the hedgehog's life? Sadly, I would have to say no.
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Old Thursday 14th March 2019, 20:24   #1497
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It’s about time department—

https://apple.news/ArLG6Kl0YQ1W_tqHwPHZ1hw
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Old Thursday 14th March 2019, 21:03   #1498
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It’s about time department—

https://apple.news/ArLG6Kl0YQ1W_tqHwPHZ1hw
For what it's worth, there's an interesting article in New Scientist, pointing out that unlike much of 3G and 4G, there are no agreed international standards on what comprises 5G, with the result that in some regions, 5G offers slower download speeds than 4G...
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Old Friday 15th March 2019, 01:35   #1499
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For what it's worth, there's an interesting article in New Scientist, pointing out that unlike much of 3G and 4G, there are no agreed international standards on what comprises 5G, with the result that in some regions, 5G offers slower download speeds than 4G...
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Ah, that's something I've been insufficiently aware of. It'll be interesting to see how the Chicago and Minneapolis introductions shake out. . ..
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Old Saturday 16th March 2019, 14:31   #1500
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@ all If you think EMR is not dangerous, perhaps you should read the following story: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...t-keep-getting In case the link doesn't work, it's on Zero Hedge and the title is "California parents want cell phone tower taken down because kids just keep getting cancer". It's a variation on a story that is getting a lot of coverage, but I am giving you this link because the author says something I have been saying all along: cell phone radiation is "one of the greatest environmental scandals in history, and yet the environmental movement is almost completely silent about this crisis."

The thing you don't seem to realize is that cell towers are harming both people and the environment. Would you want to live near one? Most people don't want to, even if they want the convenience of wireless technologies. Unfortunately, that means that someone inevitably ends up having one close to his or her home. I have a friend with cancer, which she developed after a cell tower was placed very near her home. She'd love to sell up and move to get away from it (it has long since been replaced by an even bigger cell tower, with a couple of booster masts added) but surprise, surprise, no one wants to buy her lovely home on a Greek island near a beach. And what those cell towers do to people, they also do to other creatures. They aren't safe.

I append an early study done by the US military showing that EMR makes the blood-brain barrier permeable. There are many studies showing this, but this one goes back over 40 years, showing how long we have known how much harm EMR can do. Why is this important? The blood-brain barrier is not supposed to be permeable, because it protects the brain and central nervous system from disease and damage. Certain drugs and medicines are designed to pass through the blood-brain barrier in order to work--one example is Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) like Prozac--but in general the blood-brain barrier exists to protect the organism--think of a firewall in a computer. Anyway, here we are, flooding the environment with EMR which renders the blood-brain barrier permeable, not only in people but in all creatures, and we think this is a good idea? Well, obviously we do, since we put cell towers next to people's homes, next to schools and hospitals, put Wi-Fi in everywhere, etc.

But go on, guys, keep extolling the benefits of wireless technology, and keep looking forward to 5G, 6G and all the rest.
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