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Lynx joins with Cornell

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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 13:32   #26
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Got the email as well. Still fails to mention what's happening taxonomy wise.

It basically reads as a complete takeover of HBW Alive by Cornell and the resultant shutdown of HBW Alive by the purchaser.
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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 13:42   #27
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"By submitting your audiovisual media (hereinafter the "Content") to the Cornell Lab, you retain the copyright to this Content, and you thereby grant to Cornell University a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free and perpetual license, in all media (print, electronic, or other), to use, distribute, sublicense (see below), reproduce, modify, adapt, and publicly display the Content for any purposes that further the research and educational mission of the Cornell Lab. These purposes may include (without limitation) scientific research, display on Cornell Lab websites such as eBird, Macaulay Library, Birds of North America Online, and Neotropical Birds, promotional uses, and inclusion in Cornell Lab multimedia content and products. We retain the right to sublicense the Content for research use, but will not sublicense the Content to any third party for commercial use without your permission. Whenever the Cornell Lab uses your media, you will be attributed."
I highlighted one sentence in here which I believe was added due to input from birders. One of the uses that the Macaulay images have been put to is the Merlin bird id app, and I think those type of uses are why Cornell sees the need for the rest of the paragraph.

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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 13:52   #28
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Josep's retirement plan?

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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 14:15   #29
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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 15:52   #30
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Sounds more like a takeover than a merger.
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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 16:08   #31
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May I ask, where that second letter can be found? For some reason I seem to have (been?) unsubscribed from the HBW Newsletter, but fortunately this can be found online, including the first letter. The second however I cannot find.

Personally I look very much forward to this merger as I like both ebird and HBW Alive and have no concerns about any of them, so I think if this is done with the necessary care and technical astuteness us birders will profit greatly from this.
I wonder about the many implications this will have and look forward to hearing more details.
Even if it was a 'takeover' instead of a merger, what would the main concerns be? Taxonomy will definitely be affected, but how many of you had actually ever embraced HBW/Birdlife taxonomy? What features might we lose? How will this compare to the ones we gain?
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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 17:09   #32
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It looks like we might lose IBC as an independent location to look for images of a given species.

Niels
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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 17:24   #33
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Originally Posted by Maffong View Post
Taxonomy will definitely be affected, but how many of you had actually ever embraced HBW/Birdlife taxonomy? What features might we lose? How will this compare to the ones we gain?
Good question. I follow IOC taxonomy, but I do tend to target HBW splits on foreign trips as insurance. My sense is that HBW is basically a "quick and dirty" and ahead of the curve, and that IOC is playing catch-up and will adopt most HBW splits eventually.
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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 17:37   #34
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I highlighted one sentence in here which I believe was added due to input from birders. One of the uses that the Macaulay images have been put to is the Merlin bird id app, and I think those type of uses are why Cornell sees the need for the rest of the paragraph.

Niels
I don't like the fact that Birds of North America Online is behind a pay wall. I suspect neotropical birds will go that way one day—which is why I've been very circumspect in contributing to it. I understand that websites cost, but I think it's better to do this by donations [like BF] when so much of the content is contributed for free. I'd also support paying if it were a not-for-profit.
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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 18:15   #35
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I don't like the fact that Birds of North America Online is behind a pay wall. I suspect neotropical birds will go that way one day—which is why I've been very circumspect in contributing to it. I understand that websites cost, but I think it's better to do this by donations [like BF] when so much of the content is contributed for free. I'd also support paying if it were a not-for-profit.
BNA online access used to be a perk of being a member in AOU (and probably still is ...)

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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 20:16   #36
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you thereby grant to Cornell University a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free and perpetual license, in all media (print, electronic, or other), to use, distribute, sublicense (see below), reproduce, modify, adapt, and publicly display the Content for any purposes that further the research and educational mission of the Cornell Lab[/color]. These purposes may include (without limitation) scientific research, display on Cornell Lab websites such as eBird, Macaulay Library, Birds of North America Online, and Neotropical Birds, promotional uses, and inclusion in Cornell Lab multimedia content and products. We retain the right to sublicense the Content for research use, but will not sublicense the Content to any third party for commercial use without your permission. Whenever the Cornell Lab uses your media, you will be attributed."
Is it a guarantee that personal records and media uploaded to open platforms will not be privatized and put behind a paywall?

What happens to publications using records provided for free by individual people, which Cornell and HBW probably will not give for free?
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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 20:30   #37
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Is it a guarantee that personal records and media uploaded to open platforms will not be privatized and put behind a paywall?

What happens to publications using records provided for free by individual people, which Cornell and HBW probably will not give for free?
Yup, that is surely the agenda - full monetisation of the platform - best remove personal content if you want control over your material.

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Old Tuesday 12th March 2019, 20:44   #38
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Is it a guarantee that personal records and media uploaded to open platforms will not be privatized and put behind a paywall?

What happens to publications using records provided for free by individual people, which Cornell and HBW probably will not give for free?
It is easy enough to ask for data from ebird and use that for analysis that results in a publication. Usually permission to do so is given very quickly and for free.

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Old Wednesday 13th March 2019, 06:19   #39
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I think that anyone who has paid for the full set of HBW, should get a free subscription anyway as others have noted in the past.
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Old Wednesday 13th March 2019, 07:19   #40
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I think that anyone who has paid for the full set of HBW, should get a free subscription anyway as others have noted in the past.
As we already have to pay to use HBW as-is I can't see that sort of gift coming...
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Old Wednesday 13th March 2019, 08:29   #41
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As we already have to pay to use HBW as-is I can't see that sort of gift coming...
Neither can I but when you've lumped out about £4K on HBW and HMW, plus the various new field guides, a measly subscription isn't much to ask is it?

I see also that like the bird books, they're starting to maximise their income stream from mammals too, what will come next, ungulates, canines.....?

I wonder if they'll venture in to reptiles and amphibians?

https://www.lynxeds.com/product/primates/
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Old Wednesday 13th March 2019, 15:33   #42
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Neither can I but when you've lumped out about £4K on HBW and HMW, plus the various new field guides, a measly subscription isn't much to ask is it?

I see also that like the bird books, they're starting to maximise their income stream from mammals too, what will come next, ungulates, canines.....?

I wonder if they'll venture in to reptiles and amphibians?

https://www.lynxeds.com/product/primates/
>>a measly subscription isn't much to ask is it?

Perhaps not for you / us. But (for example) what if you're in a South American village where you have an internet cafe but nothing more and where you certainly can't afford to pay for these other things. One day, (when I get around to it), I'm going to have a crack at putting range maps against all the Wikipedia bird entries—if someone doesn't beat me to it
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Old Wednesday 13th March 2019, 15:52   #43
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>>a measly subscription isn't much to ask is it?

Perhaps not for you / us. But (for example) what if you're in a South American village where you have an internet cafe but nothing more and where you certainly can't afford to pay for these other things. One day, (when I get around to it), I'm going to have a crack at putting range maps against all the Wikipedia bird entries—if someone doesn't beat me to it
Not sure what you're point is?

What does me, complaining about the fact that despite a large outlay on Lynx books, people still have to subscribe to 'HBW Alive', have to do with someone in South America?
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Old Wednesday 13th March 2019, 16:05   #44
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Personally I look very much forward to this merger as I like both ebird and HBW Alive and have no concerns about any of them, so I think if this is done with the necessary care and technical astuteness us birders will profit greatly from this.
I wonder about the many implications this will have and look forward to hearing more details.
Even if it was a 'takeover' instead of a merger, what would the main concerns be? Taxonomy will definitely be affected, but how many of you had actually ever embraced HBW/Birdlife taxonomy? What features might we lose? How will this compare to the ones we gain?
There has been absolutely nothing stated so far that is positive i.e what extra are we getting from this takeover (lets stop pretending this is in any way a merger based upon the statements made so far).

Taxonomy wise I use IOC so that isn't going to change, but I also use my HBW subscription as a content provider for detail especially around subspecies descriptions and comparing the groupings to species level, distribution with IOC. As such whilst not the taxonomy I value the subscription greatly.

Whilst I've started using eBird, I question why regularly ( I only started doing so Q3 last year and its secondary to my own reporting application). I started because I was using their data and thought I should contribute my own sightings - since doing so I'm realizing their data standards are highly questionable based upon the reviewers diligence.

Out of the 3, i.e IOC , HBW, Cornell/eBird content, I only actually care about the first 2. A likely result therefore is giving up on the last two if HBW is diluted.
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Old Wednesday 13th March 2019, 16:10   #45
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There has been absolutely nothing stated so far that is positive i.e what extra are we getting from this takeover (lets stop pretending this is in any way a merger based upon the statements made so far).

Taxonomy wise I use IOC so that isn't going to change, but I also use my HBW subscription as a content provider for detail especially around subspecies descriptions and comparing the groupings to species level, distribution with IOC. As such whilst not the taxonomy I value the subscription greatly.

Whilst I've started using eBird, I question why regularly ( I only started doing so Q3 last year and its secondary to my own reporting application). I started because I was using their data and thought I should contribute my own sightings - since doing so I'm realizing their data standards are highly questionable based upon the reviewers diligence.

Out of the 3, i.e IOC , HBW, Cornell/eBird content, I only actually care about the first 2. A likely result therefore is giving up on the last two if HBW is diluted.
I commented earlier that this is a takeover, not a merger.
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Old Wednesday 13th March 2019, 16:16   #46
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I commented earlier that this is a takeover, not a merger.
Yes you did in post 30 - I said it for the first time in post 26. Seems to be few agreeing with us (explicitly at least)
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Old Wednesday 13th March 2019, 17:00   #47
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Yes you did in post 30 - I said it for the first time in post 26. Seems to be few agreeing with us (explicitly at least)
Sorry, missed that.
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Old Wednesday 13th March 2019, 17:08   #48
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Sorry, missed that.
No problem....the practical implications are far more of a concern. At the minute I assume I'll not be renewing my HBW subscription (or whatever is the proposed alternative) is the effective result personally.
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Old Wednesday 13th March 2019, 17:41   #49
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I think it is too early to tell what the result of all this will be. And therefore also too early to conclude regarding renewal or not.

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Old Wednesday 13th March 2019, 22:02   #50
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One day, (when I get around to it), I'm going to have a crack at putting range maps against all the Wikipedia bird entries—if someone doesn't beat me to it
It would be absolutely legal to write all factual content of HBW alive on Wikipedia with simply changing wording. Somebody moderately programming savvy could even write a script doing this automatically, including changing the phrases and words. I don't even think this would influence the HBW business much - just like people pay for field guies to places they never intend to visit.

Regarding the temptation to withdraw or commercialize the project, I hope HBW and Cornell never thought of this. BTW, folks, this is serious. Just as birds are vulnerable, so free birdwatching community is intristically vulnerable.

A wild bird may be enjoyed by thousands of people, and then somebody will want it for free all to himself and shoot it. As long as there is no penalty for taking a public good, the bird will finally be shot. That is why all modern countries prohibit killing or catching wild birds outside regulated hunting. The birdwatching community itself is a public good too, and somebody might be tempted to destroy it for real or imaginary gain. A company trying to monetize access to the information. An ambitious scientist who wants to have publicly gathered data as material to publish it himself. The point is, that the free, sharing nature of birdwatching is itself vulnerable. It is not for granted. And vulnerable are benefits of mass birdwatching movement, like mass interest in bird protection.

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