Indeed, population size’s the thing. Unless it’s sharply reduced what’s left of wild nature is doomed. Under the current political and economic setup, some problems are beyond fixing and I fear an already huge and continually growing human population is one of them.
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
INDIGENOUS Communities ARE Better At Preserving Biodiversity, Research Shows (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Chosun Juan
- Start date
Indeed, population size’s the thing. Unless it’s sharply reduced what’s left of wild nature is doomed. Under the current political and economic setup, some problems are beyond fixing and I fear an already huge and continually growing human population is one of them.
BluePlanet
Sun Sea and Trees. Registered User
(Re discussion about population size and not management)
Surely it is both the human activities/management and population size worldwide?
Both need actions.
To me, the former can be actioned very immediately by each individual, in the individual's activities today.
Re the OP, I acknowledge and respect the Indigenous Peoples, the First Peoples, and hope that all people work together, learning about good practices such as pointed to via the OP's link, focussing on solutions relating to known destructive human-activities that continue currently. ??
Surely it is both the human activities/management and population size worldwide?
Both need actions.
To me, the former can be actioned very immediately by each individual, in the individual's activities today.
Re the OP, I acknowledge and respect the Indigenous Peoples, the First Peoples, and hope that all people work together, learning about good practices such as pointed to via the OP's link, focussing on solutions relating to known destructive human-activities that continue currently. ??
AFeather
Well-known member
Journal of Environmental Science & Policy title:
"Vertebrate biodiversity on indigenous-managed lands in Australia, Brazil, and Canada equals that in protected areas"
Maxine Speier's interpretation:
"INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES ARE BETTER AT PRESERVING BIODIVERSITY, RESEARCH SHOWS"
We should always go for the published study over miss guided interpretations.
There are ways of getting hold of them when access is needed...
"Vertebrate biodiversity on indigenous-managed lands in Australia, Brazil, and Canada equals that in protected areas"
Maxine Speier's interpretation:
"INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES ARE BETTER AT PRESERVING BIODIVERSITY, RESEARCH SHOWS"
We should always go for the published study over miss guided interpretations.
There are ways of getting hold of them when access is needed...
litebeam
Well-known member
Agreed.
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Joost,
Thanks very much for providing access to that paper. I had a very quick squizz, but look forward to sitting down and reading it properly after a big sleep-in (courtesy of only ~3 hrs sleep per day over the last week).
Looking at the mapped area of the study, it would be interesting to correlate that to the natural ranges of where extinctions (with causes) have taken place since white settlement. I note that the 'unprotected' areas include the Murray-Darling Basin (the size of France and Germany combined) which we have just about killed, among others. More later.
Chosun :gh:
Farnboro John
Well-known member
Actually it would be interesting just to correlate mapped areas to extinctions with causes, throughout history. Your idea is what we call decision-based evidence making.
John
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
I'm not following the point I think you're making in relation to what I've said - you lost me. There seems to be a misunderstanding somewhere along the way. There are a lot of previous posts I have to address, and a lot of info on developing situations which will give further context.
You might be interested in this article: https://www.smh.com.au/environment/...WXiZZi-fOjQ6KsSQIjjXygoX235VQzBIZNFgMxkAdFWq0
Chosun :gh:
Last edited:
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
John,
The entirety of this post of yours is so 180° off what I am saying that I think I can be most helpful by addressing it sentence by sentence.
Before we get down to the level of "the nature of the 'management' activity" , the fundamental difference comes from the philosophy or values of the culture. It is a worldview. The difference is between one that respects the earth as 'Mother' and 'Father' - the source of creation, and one that sees environments as something to exploit.
I will agree that sheer numbers compound the problem - especially with the exploitative mindset that has prevailed in the majority of the world up to this point
That is not a statement I would agree with. Whilst there may have been some 'short term' effects (such as the ~30 year drought in Australia - and corresponding floods in Central America ~ 600 years ago from memory) , the overriding 'balance' comes back to the core philosophy embodied in the people's.
Indigenous people have their own medicines, and I would argue that the Aborigines present upon first contact with the outside world were the picture of health. Thriving. Strong, beautiful people.
I'm not a Lore(man) , but in 'Australia' there was something like ~250 to ~900 Aboriginal 'Nations' all living peacefully under an advanced system of governance and Law for thousands upon thousands of years. As the oldest living culture on earth, Aboriginies simply couldn't have thrived if they lived competitively as much of the rest of the world does. Yours is a view I would not subscribe to in this instance.
This is not my area of study, but even in the last decade the accepted paradigms have been turned on their heads. I would say the science is by no means settled. It is entirely likely that Aboriginals and 'Megafauna' coexisted for 10's and 10's of 1000's of years if not more. The exact cause of their disappearance is not yet proven to my mind. I do note from readings that beasts such as the 'Marsupial Lion' were highly specialized for taking larger prey.
I disagree, and I also would not term things the way you have.
I am advocating the 'philosophy' as the ONLY hope this world has got, because quite honestly, non-indigenous peoples have made a right mess of it, and despite the hippy movement, despite the green movement, what's left is headed over a cliff at a rapid rate of knots if our eyes and the scientific community are to be believed.
Again, rather than "mindlessly" existing, I would say that the complete opposite is indeed the reality. ie. MINDFUL existence.
I take it that by 'enlightenment' you mean the 'Age of Reason' and even by extension the 'Scientific Method'. Unfortunately in the absence of 'true' 'enlightenment' (ie. The 'Light' , Buddha, the unbroken lineage of Tibetan Buddhism, Sufism, Merlin - Excalibur, Jesus Christ, and of course earlier, and other 'native' examples throughout history, as well as the 'Dreamtime' of Aboriginals) , this is merely an incomplete subset. Combined with the spiritual and wisdom immaturity of the world it has lobbed the world precisely where we are right now.
I am not suggesting that at all. Solving rampant population growth will not solve the corrupt governance (and outright criminality in large parts) of the world.
* I do advocate a 'fair dinkum' paradigm shift to a sustainable philosophy of life as embodied by Aboriginals.
* I do think it would be prudent to focus on population growth amelioration through education, equitable opportunity for females, empowerment, family planning access, etc
* We need effective peaceful truly democratic (or its equivalent where appropriate) governance worldwide.
* We also need to set about a concerted program of accelerated environmental repair and transition - I would suggest this involves (largely) moving from islands of nature in a sea of humanity to:- islands of humanity in amongst a sea of nature.
** Can folks even imagine the funds and resources that would be freed up to achieve these agendas /improved ways of life if all the world's military expense was devoted to the task ?
** I would also suggest that our space exploration/settlement be done along these principles too, because so far we've often treated what we've accessed as a junkyard.
Chosun :gh:
Last edited:
It can be explained by the work of this economist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom
" Among her better known works in this area is her study on the polycentricity of police functions in Indianapolis.[29] Caring for the commons had to be a multiple task, organised from the ground up and shaped to cultural norms. It had to be discussed face to face, and based on trust. Dr. Ostrom, besides poring over satellite data and quizzing lobstermen herself, enjoyed employing game theory to try to predict the behaviour of people faced with limited resources. In her Workshop in Political Theory and Policy Analysis at Indiana University—set up with her husband Vincent, a political scientist, in 1973—her students were given shares in a national commons. When they simply discussed what they should do before they did it, their rate of return from their "investments" more than doubled. Her later, and more famous, work focused on how humans interact with ecosystems to maintain long-term sustainable resource yields. Common pool resources include many forests, fisheries, oil fields, grazing lands, and irrigation systems. She conducted her field studies on the management of pasture by locals in Africa and irrigation systems management in villages of western Nepal (e.g., Dang Deukhuri). Her work has considered how societies have developed diverse institutional arrangements for managing natural resources and avoiding ecosystem collapse in many cases, even though some arrangements have failed to prevent resource exhaustion. Her work emphasized the multifaceted nature of human–ecosystem interaction and argues against any singular "panacea" for individual social-ecological system problems.[30]"
In short: traditional communities often evolve arrangements which serve the local ecosystem better than those imposed from above.
Nohatch
Mad scientist
Your very welcome :t: Sorry I haven't got time to read up & engage with this interesting thread, but I may watch from the sidelines.
J
tittletattler
Well-known member
Certainly not the case in Mindanao re: PICOP and Mount Apo at least.
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
John Muir
"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul"
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...6832&id=367268523352486&anchor_composer=false
Chosun :gh:
"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul"
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...6832&id=367268523352486&anchor_composer=false
Chosun :gh:
Hi,
That sounds highly interesting. In case you've read it, would you consider her book "Governing the Commons: The Evolution of Institutions for Collective Action" accessible to laypersons?
From reading "The Dark Emu", my impression is that Aboriginal society had managed to avoid the "Tragedy of the Commons" (overexploitation of shared resources), and that would seem to be an example for traditional communities achieving success on more or less a continental, certainly not just on a local, scale.
So I'm looking for further reading, and from what you mentioned about Dr. Ostrom, her work seems to be highly relevant to the topic at hand
Regards,
Henning
That sounds highly interesting. In case you've read it, would you consider her book "Governing the Commons: The Evolution of Institutions for Collective Action" accessible to laypersons?
From reading "The Dark Emu", my impression is that Aboriginal society had managed to avoid the "Tragedy of the Commons" (overexploitation of shared resources), and that would seem to be an example for traditional communities achieving success on more or less a continental, certainly not just on a local, scale.
So I'm looking for further reading, and from what you mentioned about Dr. Ostrom, her work seems to be highly relevant to the topic at hand
Regards,
Henning
Farnboro John
Well-known member
We all now know that is a description of everybody. Does Dr Ostrom's model predict the behaviour of the human population of the planet, or is it just one more non-functional description of a limited set in a heavily circumscribed situation, just like the non-science of economics?
John
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
A very simple animation of how exotic animals and grazing/agricultural practices ruined a landscape in a matter of decades.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ylqR6u7xCjs
Chosun :gh:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ylqR6u7xCjs
Chosun :gh:
Last edited:
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Tribal areas are based on available water
Water is Life
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2362882477165452&id=175716459215409
"Aboriginal people therefore saw human society as an interdependent part of the whole ecology not being separate from or holding dominion over it. .....
..... This was however not just the carrying capacity of the land in a good or average year, but in the worst of years. For Aboriginal people abundance was the norm."
I think we must also say something about the concepts of Capitalism, and Death too, as important differences.
Chosun :gh:
Water is Life
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2362882477165452&id=175716459215409
"Aboriginal people therefore saw human society as an interdependent part of the whole ecology not being separate from or holding dominion over it. .....
..... This was however not just the carrying capacity of the land in a good or average year, but in the worst of years. For Aboriginal people abundance was the norm."
I think we must also say something about the concepts of Capitalism, and Death too, as important differences.
Chosun :gh:
Last edited:
Hi John,
That mere knowledge of a limitation does not necessarily result in an adaption of different utilization strategies of the resources in question is in fact one of the things game theory, as a mathematical discipline, explains quite well.
An accurate, predictive and non-limited model of human society certainly would be a highly desirable tool to have, but outside of Asimov's "Foundation" series, no-one seems to have had much luck in building one ;-)
Regards,
Henning
That mere knowledge of a limitation does not necessarily result in an adaption of different utilization strategies of the resources in question is in fact one of the things game theory, as a mathematical discipline, explains quite well.
An accurate, predictive and non-limited model of human society certainly would be a highly desirable tool to have, but outside of Asimov's "Foundation" series, no-one seems to have had much luck in building one ;-)
Regards,
Henning
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
Lore
If you think the mindset is different, then you are likely underestimating by a factor of about a bazillion ! Completely alien would be a graspable concept .....
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article...6aZsFTjby9-YTeCYzlR1hHB2CQb9AYBkxegUeczMig-lU
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf0RrQ62jw8
Chosun :gh:
If you think the mindset is different, then you are likely underestimating by a factor of about a bazillion ! Completely alien would be a graspable concept .....
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article...6aZsFTjby9-YTeCYzlR1hHB2CQb9AYBkxegUeczMig-lU
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf0RrQ62jw8
Chosun :gh:
Chosun Juan
Given to Fly
An Anti-war Society
"We are going to tell the truth about Aboriginal culture; the oldest continuous culture on earth and the first culture on earth to devise a system where society would be anti-war and were consistent with that ethos for 80 thousand years. It had never been tried anywhere else on earth and it was very effective. The persistence with which each generation took it up was phenomenal."
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2453222104798155&id=175716459215409
https://www.ewb.org.au/whatwedo/eng...tories-of-indigenous-engineering/bruce-pascoe
Chosun :gh:
"We are going to tell the truth about Aboriginal culture; the oldest continuous culture on earth and the first culture on earth to devise a system where society would be anti-war and were consistent with that ethos for 80 thousand years. It had never been tried anywhere else on earth and it was very effective. The persistence with which each generation took it up was phenomenal."
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2453222104798155&id=175716459215409
https://www.ewb.org.au/whatwedo/eng...tories-of-indigenous-engineering/bruce-pascoe
Chosun :gh:
